Do you thi...

[Imp]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 18</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you think the Wars of Beleriand would have went differently if Morgoth himself was on the frontline? It is said in the Silmarillion the only time he came out from the depths of Angband was to duel Fingolfin.

I believe if he did then the Wars would have gone differently, more favorably instead of dredging on.

(If I make a mistake do not persecute me, please, I am only in the middle of the Silmarillion and I am not even done with all of the Wars of Beleriand)

</p>

[Imp]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 20</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
...

Nobody has any input? ok <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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Re: ...

Morgoth obviously had no enemy who could really threaten him until the intervention of the Valar. So, he could possibly have wreaked havoc among the Elves and Men, winning the important battles for the evil side. This would most likely have accelerated the events later on, and caused the West to do something earlier, maybe without a plead from Earendil. Difficult to say how the War would have ended then - probably no worse or better than it did.

On the other hand, Fingolfin and Thorondor have shown us that Morgoth was neither immune to wounds, pain, or even fear. After he would have taken a some nasty hits by Elvish lordsd he would have redrawn again; full of fear, and with no imminent need to take part in the front-battles anyway.

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: ...

And was it not true that Morgoth's will (and Sauron's, when he became the second Dark Lord) followed his armies wherever they went? And if his will was not with them then they got whooped? <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> For example, after Gollum is thrown into the Cracks of Doom with the Ring and Sauron is thrown down, the armies outside the Black Gate 'fail' and lose the battle because their master is no more.

- enep</p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

Think of the Dagor Dagorath, when all the Dragons and Balrogs issued from Angband at the head of the army. Now multiply that destructive force by ten. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> That's what it'd be like if Morgoth actually fought in the Wars.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
Administrator @ <a href=http://pub6.ezboard.com/bthegrandadmiralsforums>The Grand Admirals Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub10.ezboard.com/bb5techforums>The Grey Council Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub9.ezboard.com/bechostation12>The McClain Council</a> and <a href=http://pub14.ezboard.com/bthegrandmoffsforums>The Grand Moff's Forums</a>.</br> </p>

[Voronwe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 180</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

In, my opinion, the presence of Morgoth on the front line would not have helped his armies much. He was probably a lot better off nice and safe in Angband, where he could control his armies on the field objectively instead of from the confusion in the middle of a battle.
Also, would Morgoth really have made a good warrior? He was not brave as he knew fear, and his body could quite probably have been slain (at least Fingolfin managed to maim him forever - and that was in single combat). He just wouldn't have taken the risk of going into battle.

Dagor Dagorath?! I presume you mean Dagor Bragollach. The Dagor Dagorarth is the final battle that will take place at the end of the world.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000143>Voronwe</A> at: 2/20/01 1:15:10 pm

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

Just wanted to say that you can't be brave if you have nothing to fear. Otherwise you have nothing to lose and then it is not bravery.

Oh, and Melkor was one of the great among the ainur, they cannot die, in any instance.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

Just wanted to say that you can't be brave if you have nothing to fear. Otherwise you have nothing to lose and then it is not bravery.

Oh, and Melkor was one of the great among the ainur, they cannot die, in any instance. That is why he had to be cast into the void.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Voronwe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

They cannot die - but can their bodies be destroyed? After the destruction of the trees Morgoth lost the power to change his form; he was stuck in the form of a 'Dark Lord'. Fingolfin hewed off Morgoth's foot, and he never got it back, as the Silmarillion clearly states. If his physical body could be damaged thus, could it not also be destroyed?

It's a tricky question. But we know one thing - Morgoth was not immune to weapons or to pain. Unlike the other Valar, he felt fear.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

Seems as if I posted twice. I don't think they can die in any sense of the word. Anyone else have info. that could shed more light on this?

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: ...

Ainur cannot, as it is, Die; but the bodies that they inhabit, their form, can whither away and they cannot (in most cases) return to that form and their spirit floats away to watch the world go by; when Saruman died his form was cast away and his spirit sent to wander. Gandalf, on the other hand, was one of the few given a new form and sent back. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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Re: ...

Yes, we knoow this is true for most ainur, but what about the extremely powerful ones.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

I always thought of Morgoth as not the enraged warrior kind of evil, but the more strategic cunning type fo evil that would rather outwit from afar than have a test of might in person. Just my opinion.

-Sûldal ~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=- </p>

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Morgoth to the front

Morgoth had a heavily growing fear of Turgon, as we can conclude from the tales.
This could not have been only because he was fearing for his own troops, and his power connected to them. It must have somewhat been also out of personal fear for his own black hide. He was not the kind of leader who cared much about his soldiers. If he had stood a chance alone, he would have taken it and forgot about his pesky soldiers, wouldn't he?


<h6>Ah, listen to them... the children of the night... what sweet music they make...</h6></p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth to the front

I don't think it would have made much of a difference since, except to rouse their spirits. Because he could directly link his mind to anyone in his army. Also it says that much of his power was put into his armies. Hmmm... it might have done though since he was still quite powerful. But he was more of a behind the scenes kind of guy, like sauron.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth to the front

As Oronwe says, Morgoth had the capacity for both pain and injury. It was much safer to direct his troops from behind the lines. Earlier on he had suffered captivity and imprisonment for thirty years (?) although he may have done this for his own purposes. And in the end he was &quot;thrust through the Doors of Night beyond the Walls of the World into the Timeless Void, and a guard was set forever on those walls.&quot; So he was not impervious to pain, injury, or imprisonment. Staying in Angband was discretion.

</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth to the front

I thought it was longer than 30 years... it says the elves had peace for many long ages or something like that while Melkor was imprisoned

</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Morgoth to the front

yes, morgoth definately was not into going into the fray although he often sent his men out there. he was subject to pain, even in his stronger days... like when fingolfin hewed his foot off. Even if he made a new body it still held the scars of the last, or was that sauron, or both?<img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[doug*platypus]

Of course the Wars would've been different, there would've been this 30 foot tall dude in black armour! The Elves would've won convincingly. Morgoth would've gotten f*&#ed up. Imagine if you were fighting for the Allies in the 2nd World War and you saw Adolf Hitler in front of you. You'd go nuts. Morgoth had a lot of very powerful enemies - I'm not suprised he spent nearly all his time underground hatching plots.