Father like Son - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Guildo · 08-17-2002, 10:08 PM

Any one Notice that Bilbo and Frodo, Share a remarkable similarity with JRR Tolkien and Cristopher Tolkien.
Bilbo was unable to finish there and back again becouse of his age, as was Tolkien was unable to finishe the Silmarillion and many of his other stories becouse of his age, i dont know if the Four of them are meant to be related but i like to think that there is a lttle Tolkien in all his characters.
Perhaps he wanted it to signify his relation ship with his son, i dont know if Tolien had any other sons, but i know he sometimes viewed his Stories as a burddon becouse of people constantly demanding maps, timelines, lineage, and other info from him, and JRR Tolkien knew he would not be able to finish his stories therefor passing the Gift and the burddon to his son Cristopher, as did Bilbo with Frodo passing to him There and Back again (the gift) and The ring of power (the burddon). i think its something to have an interesting Conversation about.

i was also randering If Cristopher Tolkien has written any other books on his own?

Davin · 08-17-2002, 10:52 PM

that's interesting, but did Tolkien know that he wouldn't finish when he was writing LotR?

Nar · 08-18-2002, 08:46 AM

Interesting question, Guildo. Leaf by Niggle was written (I believe) before LotR (correct me if I'm wrong; it feels like a VERY early work to me) and involves an artist, Niggle, creating a grand, beautiful and complicated work-- a painting of a tree-- which he cannot quite capture in all the glory it holds in his mind.

(semi-spoiler)
In the end, Niggle is unable to finish it, but one fragment reaches the public.

That story appears to tap anxieties about Tolkien's legendarium of poems and stories later published as The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and much of the History of Middle Earth. I think anxieties about finishing those stories were present during the writing of LotR and probably did influence Tolkien's treatment of The Red Book and Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish. Note, though, that Bilbo did finish Translations from the Elvish, as Tolkien planned to finish and publish his Elvish and Numenorean stories. It was The Red Book Bilbo didn't finish-- and of course its (possible) counterpart, LotR, is the one Tolkien DID publish. And Sam adding on to The Red Book doesn't match real life at all!

Tolkien couldn't know that his son would step in and go to work on publishing these works -- he certainly tried to finish and publish what would be The Silmarillion himself both before and after LotR came out. So that parallel of the 'heir' finishing the 'mentor's' book is a coincidence --or you could say that the author's depiction of Bilbo's and Frodo's relationship in the book might be applicable to the Tolkiens' relationship in real life. Then it wouldn't be at all surprising if the response of Frodo to what began as 'There and Back Again' (The Red Book) was applicable to Christopher Tolkien's response to his father's unfinished works. There's filial feeling for you.

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

Guildo · 08-19-2002, 09:18 PM

Hey Nar i dont think ive ever heard of Leaf by Niggle can you give me details on it?

Arwen Imladris · 08-22-2002, 07:14 PM

If you wanted to know, Tolkien did have other sons, Christopher is the only one we hear about because he did all of the editing for his fathers works.

Evenstar1 · 08-22-2002, 09:28 PM

Yes, I just read a book about Tolkien's life and he had 4 children, total. Three boys: Michael, John, Christopher and a daughter: Priscilla. One of the boys (I believe it was John) became a priest. And Tolkien had a very close relationship with all of his children: a good amount of the lore of Middle Earth came out of the "Father Christmas Letters" he used to write to his kids each holiday season from the time Michael (I think he's the oldest) was four years old. Later, he wrote The Hobbit for them. And he continued to write letters of advice to them throughout his life, even when they were all grown-up.

Incidentally, in Tolkien's initial storyline, and up through many of his revisions of LOTR, Frodo was Bilbo's son, and his name was not "Frodo," it was "Bingo."

Elrian · 08-22-2002, 09:50 PM

Leaf by Niggle can be found in "The Tolkien Reader", a collection of poems and short stories by Tolkien.

Legolas · 08-22-2002, 10:11 PM

Actually, Arwen Imladris, if you've read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien or almost any biography, you'll be familiar with his other sons (John Francis Reuel, oldest; Michael Hilary Reuel, second) and his daughter and youngest child, Priscilla.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Nar · 08-23-2002, 09:43 AM

Guildo, Leaf by Niggle is considered a sort-of allegory about the conflict between art and dreams on the one hand and duty towards needy, annoying neighbors on the other. It's a spare, dreamy story (how it manages to be both I don't know-- it's that peculiarly practical vision of 'redemption' I guess). There's a good recent thread on Niggle which is currently residing on page two of the Books Forum 'The Autobiographical Tolkien, Leaf by Niggle' started by Estelyn Telcontar.

Guildo · 08-23-2002, 12:07 PM

i believe Cristopher Tolkien has had one of his best friends help him with the books of his father(i cant remember his name though) but in a sense this guy can be called Sam. i think its very interesting nonetheless whether it be an intentional or unententional analogy.

Being an Art student im deffinately going
to read Leafe by Niggle. i also was wandering if Cristopher Tolkien has any of his own works or if any of his sones or daughter for that matter.

08-17-2002, 10:08 PM	#1
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Father like Son Any one Notice that Bilbo and Frodo, Share a remarkable similarity with JRR Tolkien and Cristopher Tolkien. Bilbo was unable to finish there and back again becouse of his age, as was Tolkien was unable to finishe the Silmarillion and many of his other stories becouse of his age, i dont know if the Four of them are meant to be related but i like to think that there is a lttle Tolkien in all his characters. Perhaps he wanted it to signify his relation ship with his son, i dont know if Tolien had any other sons, but i know he sometimes viewed his Stories as a burddon becouse of people constantly demanding maps, timelines, lineage, and other info from him, and JRR Tolkien knew he would not be able to finish his stories therefor passing the Gift and the burddon to his son Cristopher, as did Bilbo with Frodo passing to him There and Back again (the gift) and The ring of power (the burddon). i think its something to have an interesting Conversation about. i was also randering If Cristopher Tolkien has written any other books on his own? __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

08-17-2002, 10:52 PM	#2
Davin Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 166	that's interesting, but did Tolkien know that he wouldn't finish when he was writing LotR? __________________ So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. »»The Telmena««

08-19-2002, 09:18 PM	#4
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Hey Nar i dont think ive ever heard of Leaf by Niggle can you give me details on it? __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

08-22-2002, 07:14 PM	#5
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	If you wanted to know, Tolkien did have other sons, Christopher is the only one we hear about because he did all of the editing for his fathers works. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

08-22-2002, 09:28 PM	#6
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	Yes, I just read a book about Tolkien's life and he had 4 children, total. Three boys: Michael, John, Christopher and a daughter: Priscilla. One of the boys (I believe it was John) became a priest. And Tolkien had a very close relationship with all of his children: a good amount of the lore of Middle Earth came out of the "Father Christmas Letters" he used to write to his kids each holiday season from the time Michael (I think he's the oldest) was four years old. Later, he wrote The Hobbit for them. And he continued to write letters of advice to them throughout his life, even when they were all grown-up. Incidentally, in Tolkien's initial storyline, and up through many of his revisions of LOTR, Frodo was Bilbo's son, and his name was not "Frodo," it was "Bingo." __________________ - Eve

08-18-2002, 08:46 AM	#3
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Interesting question, Guildo. Leaf by Niggle was written (I believe) before LotR (correct me if I'm wrong; it feels like a VERY early work to me) and involves an artist, Niggle, creating a grand, beautiful and complicated work-- a painting of a tree-- which he cannot quite capture in all the glory it holds in his mind. (semi-spoiler) In the end, Niggle is unable to finish it, but one fragment reaches the public. That story appears to tap anxieties about Tolkien's legendarium of poems and stories later published as The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and much of the History of Middle Earth. I think anxieties about finishing those stories were present during the writing of LotR and probably did influence Tolkien's treatment of The Red Book and Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish. Note, though, that Bilbo did finish Translations from the Elvish, as Tolkien planned to finish and publish his Elvish and Numenorean stories. It was The Red Book Bilbo didn't finish-- and of course its (possible) counterpart, LotR, is the one Tolkien DID publish. And Sam adding on to The Red Book doesn't match real life at all! Tolkien couldn't know that his son would step in and go to work on publishing these works -- he certainly tried to finish and publish what would be The Silmarillion himself both before and after LotR came out. So that parallel of the 'heir' finishing the 'mentor's' book is a coincidence --or you could say that the author's depiction of Bilbo's and Frodo's relationship in the book might be applicable to the Tolkiens' relationship in real life. Then it wouldn't be at all surprising if the response of Frodo to what began as 'There and Back Again' (The Red Book) was applicable to Christopher Tolkien's response to his father's unfinished works. There's filial feeling for you. [ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

08-22-2002, 09:50 PM	#7
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Leaf by Niggle can be found in "The Tolkien Reader", a collection of poems and short stories by Tolkien. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

08-22-2002, 10:11 PM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Actually, Arwen Imladris, if you've read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien or almost any biography, you'll be familiar with his other sons (John Francis Reuel, oldest; Michael Hilary Reuel, second) and his daughter and youngest child, Priscilla. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-23-2002, 09:43 AM	#9
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Guildo, Leaf by Niggle is considered a sort-of allegory about the conflict between art and dreams on the one hand and duty towards needy, annoying neighbors on the other. It's a spare, dreamy story (how it manages to be both I don't know-- it's that peculiarly practical vision of 'redemption' I guess). There's a good recent thread on Niggle which is currently residing on page two of the Books Forum 'The Autobiographical Tolkien, Leaf by Niggle' started by Estelyn Telcontar.

08-23-2002, 12:07 PM	#10
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	i believe Cristopher Tolkien has had one of his best friends help him with the books of his father(i cant remember his name though) but in a sense this guy can be called Sam. i think its very interesting nonetheless whether it be an intentional or unententional analogy. Being an Art student im deffinately going to read Leafe by Niggle. i also was wandering if Cristopher Tolkien has any of his own works or if any of his sones or daughter for that matter. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

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