Was one of the nine female? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-04-2003, 04:07 PM

A friend of mine once told me that one of the nine ring wraiths (Adunaphel I think it was) Is or was a woman. Is this true?

Beren87 · 03-04-2003, 04:08 PM

They were once great kings of men, so I highly doubt it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eressië Ailin · 03-04-2003, 04:13 PM

Is there anything that says who these kings of men were?

Beren87~ Love the new avatar!!

burrahobbit · 03-04-2003, 04:33 PM

No. They were all men, males. That name isn't a name that Tolkien used, it came from some game or other.

Phrim · 03-05-2003, 10:52 AM

That name (and the identity behind it) was fabricated by Iron Crown Enterprises for the "Middle Earth: The Wizards" card game. It is certainly not canon, and most Tolkien enthusiasts disregard it.

Noting that Tolkien describes them as "Kings of Men" and the small role of women in governing the lands of Men in Tolkien's works, it is fairly safe to assume that all of the Ringwraiths are male.

Lyra Greenleaf · 03-05-2003, 02:04 PM

there were ruling queens in westernesse, numenor, but i'm pretty sure they were called queens, rather than kings.

by the way, was the fact that the men of numenor were going downwards, the reason they had women in charge? do you think it was some sort of thing by tolkien saying that strong men would never allow a woman?

Beren87 · 03-05-2003, 04:15 PM

Not really. I think it was more he was following the examples of our history too. When a king goes to war and dies without an heir often the queen will come to power. Tolkien lived through the rain of Queen Elizabeth, so he would know about this first hand.

Meoshi · 03-05-2003, 04:17 PM

It was the law of the Numenoreans that the eldest child in the royal line, whether male or female, would inherit the throne.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-05-2003, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Tolkien lived through the rain of Queen Elizabeth

I assume that you mean Queen Elizabeth II, since JRRT was not that old!! And us Brits are still living through her reign.

I'm not sure that JRRT would have seen Queens as necessarily weaker. After all, two of the strongest monarchs that we have had were women: Elizabeth I and Victoria.

Beren87 · 03-05-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

I assume that you mean Queen Elizabeth II

Yep, that was what I meant, thanks!

Birdland · 03-06-2003, 01:09 AM

Could you perhaps be referring to King Adunaphel the Effete? Sauron promised him that the Ring would "change him", but the wraith thing wasn't really what he had in mind.

burrahobbit · 03-06-2003, 03:11 AM

What?

Phrim · 03-06-2003, 09:00 AM

I thought the Witch-King and Khamul were the only Ringwraiths actually singled out and identified by Tolkien... What source is this "King Adunaphel the Effete" from?

Thanks!

Birdland · 03-06-2003, 09:05 AM

Why, from "The Very Secret Diary of King Adunaphel the Effete". Where else?

burrahobbit · 03-06-2003, 04:58 PM

Um, ok...

Yeah, Khamul and the Witch-King are the only two singled out by Tolkien. Khamul, though, is the only one that actually has a name. "Witch-King" is just a title. He was the king of Angmar, and a witch. Gothmog might have been a Nazgul, but I don't think so. Regardless of if he is or not, he is male. All of the Nine are male. Pretty much everyone is male, really.

Burzdol · 03-07-2003, 11:51 AM

Wouldn't it be that if it says they wereGreat kings of men, wouldn't they be male?

It might also be that the generalized it, saying kings, there might have been a "queen" in there. It's all inside Tolkein.

~Burzdol~

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-07-2003, 12:37 PM

Birdland, wasn't King Adunaphel the Effete actually a bit of a Queen? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Kalimac · 03-09-2003, 01:34 AM

To be really technical, "Kings of Men" could include a female. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain were referred to as the "Catholic Kings" both in English and Spanish, although Isabella was indubitably a Queen. Nowadays we'd probably try to think up some neutral term like "Rulers of Men" (or People) which doesn't quite have the same flavour to it.

But no, there's no evidence at all that one of the Nine was female, and considering the world of ME I'd be astonished if the idea ever occurred to Tolkien. There were Queens in ME, but comparatively few ruling in their own right (the only name I can think of is Tar-Ancalime, who was no picnic herself) - it's hard to imagine that if one of them had gone over to the wraith side that it wouldn't have been mentioned somewhere in the appendices. And, for what it's worth, Elrond mentions that the Nine Walkers shall oppose the Nine Riders. The nine walkers all being male, there's no reason that the nine riders shouldn't all be as well.

Oricon Ancalime · 06-05-2003, 11:26 AM

I don't think any of the ringwraiths were female. When you think about the way Middle Earth society worked and the way our society was when Tolkien was writing his stories (pre-women's liberation) women probably wouldn't have held strong roles like that. Eowyn being the obvious exception... Even Luthien and Galadriel, while female and still quite powerful, had power that ran to vocal ends as opposed to physical ones (like chasing down Rings!) However, the prefix "Tar" is used for both kings and queens of Numenor, so who knows. I guess you'd really have to study the language, but I don't think that there's enough information on it to hazard much of a guess.

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 06-06-2003, 09:43 AM

I'm pretty sure all of them were male, mainly because there were no ruling queens in the Dunedain kingdoms of Middle Earth (please correct me if I'm wrong), even thought there were in Numenor.
*I've wondered about that, is it because back on Middle Earth people's mentality de-evolved?*
Back to the thread... Altough there is no REALLY REAL proof one or two couldn't have been female... This and many other secrets are in the grave with Tolkien now [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Finwe · 06-06-2003, 12:51 PM

Nope. No ruling queens in Middle-earth. If Gondor had still followed the Law of Succession of Numenor, then Arvedui and Firiel would have ended up ruling Gondor instead of Earnil, thus preventing the fall of Arnor. But those bloody Gondorians had to be close-minded!

Gorwingel · 06-07-2003, 12:26 AM

Quote:

To be really technical, "Kings of Men" could include a female. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain were referred to as the "Catholic Kings" both in English and Spanish

That is true, but I think the Kings of Men were mainly based on the british royal traditions where this was not true, but Tolkien was Catholic so you never know.

With the number of females in the book I would highly doubt that he would try to sneak in a female Ringwraith.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

03-04-2003, 04:07 PM	#1
Discord101 Guest Posts: n/a	Was one of the nine female? A friend of mine once told me that one of the nine ring wraiths (Adunaphel I think it was) Is or was a woman. Is this true?

03-04-2003, 04:13 PM	#3
Eressië Ailin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past the Point of No Return... Posts: 502	Is there anything that says who these kings of men were? Beren87~ Love the new avatar!! __________________ Holy angel, in Heaven blessed... My spirit longs with thee to rest! ~Faust Never judge a book by its movie. ~J. W. Eagan By the big slippers of big slipperdom! ~M. Gillenormand, Les Misérables My blog!

03-04-2003, 04:33 PM	#4
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	No. They were all men, males. That name isn't a name that Tolkien used, it came from some game or other. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-05-2003, 02:04 PM	#6
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	there were ruling queens in westernesse, numenor, but i'm pretty sure they were called queens, rather than kings. by the way, was the fact that the men of numenor were going downwards, the reason they had women in charge? do you think it was some sort of thing by tolkien saying that strong men would never allow a woman? __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

03-06-2003, 03:11 AM	#12
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	What? __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-04-2003, 04:08 PM	#2
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	They were once great kings of men, so I highly doubt it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

03-05-2003, 10:52 AM	#5
Phrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 72	That name (and the identity behind it) was fabricated by Iron Crown Enterprises for the "Middle Earth: The Wizards" card game. It is certainly not canon, and most Tolkien enthusiasts disregard it. Noting that Tolkien describes them as "Kings of Men" and the small role of women in governing the lands of Men in Tolkien's works, it is fairly safe to assume that all of the Ringwraiths are male.

03-05-2003, 04:15 PM	#7
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Not really. I think it was more he was following the examples of our history too. When a king goes to war and dies without an heir often the queen will come to power. Tolkien lived through the rain of Queen Elizabeth, so he would know about this first hand.

03-05-2003, 04:17 PM	#8
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	It was the law of the Numenoreans that the eldest child in the royal line, whether male or female, would inherit the throne.

03-06-2003, 01:09 AM	#11
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Could you perhaps be referring to King Adunaphel the Effete? Sauron promised him that the Ring would "change him", but the wraith thing wasn't really what he had in mind.

03-06-2003, 09:00 AM	#13
Phrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 72	I thought the Witch-King and Khamul were the only Ringwraiths actually singled out and identified by Tolkien... What source is this "King Adunaphel the Effete" from? Thanks!

03-06-2003, 09:05 AM	#14
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Why, from "The Very Secret Diary of King Adunaphel the Effete". Where else?

03-06-2003, 04:58 PM	#15
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Um, ok... Yeah, Khamul and the Witch-King are the only two singled out by Tolkien. Khamul, though, is the only one that actually has a name. "Witch-King" is just a title. He was the king of Angmar, and a witch. Gothmog might have been a Nazgul, but I don't think so. Regardless of if he is or not, he is male. All of the Nine are male. Pretty much everyone is male, really. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-07-2003, 11:51 AM	#16
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	Wouldn't it be that if it says they wereGreat kings of men, wouldn't they be male? It might also be that the generalized it, saying kings, there might have been a "queen" in there. It's all inside Tolkein. ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

03-07-2003, 12:37 PM	#17
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Birdland, wasn't King Adunaphel the Effete actually a bit of a Queen? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-09-2003, 01:34 AM	#18
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	To be really technical, "Kings of Men" could include a female. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain were referred to as the "Catholic Kings" both in English and Spanish, although Isabella was indubitably a Queen. Nowadays we'd probably try to think up some neutral term like "Rulers of Men" (or People) which doesn't quite have the same flavour to it. But no, there's no evidence at all that one of the Nine was female, and considering the world of ME I'd be astonished if the idea ever occurred to Tolkien. There were Queens in ME, but comparatively few ruling in their own right (the only name I can think of is Tar-Ancalime, who was no picnic herself) - it's hard to imagine that if one of them had gone over to the wraith side that it wouldn't have been mentioned somewhere in the appendices. And, for what it's worth, Elrond mentions that the Nine Walkers shall oppose the Nine Riders. The nine walkers all being male, there's no reason that the nine riders shouldn't all be as well. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

06-05-2003, 11:26 AM	#19
Oricon Ancalime Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York Posts: 14	I don't think any of the ringwraiths were female. When you think about the way Middle Earth society worked and the way our society was when Tolkien was writing his stories (pre-women's liberation) women probably wouldn't have held strong roles like that. Eowyn being the obvious exception... Even Luthien and Galadriel, while female and still quite powerful, had power that ran to vocal ends as opposed to physical ones (like chasing down Rings!) However, the prefix "Tar" is used for both kings and queens of Numenor, so who knows. I guess you'd really have to study the language, but I don't think that there's enough information on it to hazard much of a guess.

06-06-2003, 09:43 AM	#20
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	I'm pretty sure all of them were male, mainly because there were no ruling queens in the Dunedain kingdoms of Middle Earth (please correct me if I'm wrong), even thought there were in Numenor. I've wondered about that, is it because back on Middle Earth people's mentality de-evolved? Back to the thread... Altough there is no REALLY REAL proof one or two couldn't have been female... This and many other secrets are in the grave with Tolkien now [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

06-06-2003, 12:51 PM	#21
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Nope. No ruling queens in Middle-earth. If Gondor had still followed the Law of Succession of Numenor, then Arvedui and Firiel would have ended up ruling Gondor instead of Earnil, thus preventing the fall of Arnor. But those bloody Gondorians had to be close-minded! __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

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