Who's the oldest?

[the mortal elf]

I've got three contestants for the oldest person/creature in middle earth, and each has pretty solid evidence.

Tom Bombadil: he told the hobbits about the old forest, and basically told them that he could remember when they were "fathers and lords of all trees." He can remember what was there before the barrow downs. He remembers and talks about "ancient starlight, when only the elf sires were awake." When Frodo asks him "who are you master?" he replies "eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, Tom was here before the river and the trees. Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn..." and does that speech. Pretty firm evidence that he's the oldest, right?

Treebeard: Pippin felt that his eyes had "an enormous well behind them filled with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking." When Gandalf is talking to Theoden and asks him to go see Treebeard he says, "...and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things." Here, my friends, we have a contradiction. Tom Bombadil is the oldest, but Treebeard is the oldest too. How does that work. Next, to confuse you even more...

Elves: Treebeard gives them the most evidence. When he's recalling parts of the old lists to the hobbits he says: "Eldest of all, the elf children." Later on, he says, "Elves began it of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree talk." Okay, now I'm confused.

I haven't read the Silmarillion yet...*winces as all the fans who have the right to call themselves diehard gasp*...so all the answers may be in there. I promise, I will read it eventually, but right now I'm really curious. Who's the oldest?

[Evenstar1]

Well, I'm only part-way through the Sil, but you have brought up a valid, Tolkienesque contradiction. First of all, though, I can say with definite definitiveness that the Elves are not the oldest. They were the first of Illuvatar's children to be appear in Middle Earth, but there were other creatures there before them.

I don't think Bombadil falls into this category rightly, because he is called "fatherless" (by Gandalf?), which would indicate something other than having a creator, in my opinion, and there has been wide speculation that Bombadil is, perhaps, Illuvatar-embodied, and walking around Middle Earth.

Now, on to Treebeard: yes, he is said to be the oldest of all living things, but Fangorn (yeah, the forest) is also said to be the oldest of the old. So which is older? Treebeard or Fangorn? Or are they one and the same, in terms of "time" of origination? (I note "time" as such, because you must keep in mind that Eru and the Ainur existed outside of the dimension of Time until some of them left to become the Valar and entered into Time. Confused? Yeah, me too!)

[Iarwain]

Well, first of all, Treebeard is Fangorn, if you paid enough attention while reading Lotr, in the two towers gandalf explains that Fangorn is treebeard in elvish. and just for you information, excluding Tom Bombadil (people can say what they want about him), the Valar are by far the oldest creatures in middle earth, because the ents, including Treebeard were created as trees by Yavanna and "awoken" by Eru after Yavanna asked Manwé about who exactly would protect the trees from the dwarves whom her husband Aúle had created.

[Galorme]

In the histories Tom says he saw Melkor decend onto the world after being driven out, which makes him older than Treebeard and the Elves, as they awoke after the return of Morgoth.

[Arwen Imladris]

Maybe they are all the same age...

And what about dwarves? Weren't they actually created before elves? Weren't the ents created to save the trees from the dwarves?

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Arwen Imladris ]

[Amarie]

Tom Bombadil is older than the Elves and the Ents.
Evenstar1: It's been speculated that Tom is Eru embodied? Please direct me to a thread where I can read about this.

About the dwarves: They were created before the Elves were awakend. I have read nowhere that they were created before the elves where created. How long where the Elves created before they awoke? I do not know. I not read all of HoME though, and the answer may be there.
The Dwarves were up and going for a little while before the Elves where awakend. Eru jumped Aule about it, and put the dwarves to sleep, because he wanted his Children (Elves)to come first.
The shepherds were not made for the sole purpose of keeping the drwaves in line. They were to protect all trees against whatever might harm them.

[lathspell]

hey,

Evenstar1: Tolkien himself denied that Tom Bombadil was Iluvatar embodied, it was one of the few questions he would react to.

Aule indeed made the dwarves before Iluvatar had finished the Elves, yet the dwarves remained asleep and the Elves awakened first near lake Cuivienen. The Elves awoke the Ents by teaching them to speak and walk, as Treebeard points out in LotR. Tom was there before all this happened, and he is therefore oldest of M-e, yet the Ainur are eldest of Arda and it is not known if he is one of them.

P.S.: Evenstar... it were the elves who called him Iarwain ben-adar... eldest and fatherless

from what i have been told the Elves are oldest race in middle earth

[*Varda*]

The Elves are the oldest race, yes.

But can we really say that Tom is of one specific race? Whatever he is, say he was only one of his kind, therefore he wouldn't be a race...if you know what I mean...I don't.

[Laurelin]

I say Tom Bombadil is the odlest thing, in the book he said that he was there when every thing happened.
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Hi!
Just thought I'd add to the facts that Galadriel calls Treebeard "eldest" in LotR. But it's difficult deciding who's the eldest of Bombadil and Treebeard. I haven't read all that one can read about ME, so I don't know if the answers out there. Maybe they appeared at approximately the same time.

Supreme Leader [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rohirrim Lass]

Well, lathspell said what I was going to say, so I'll just sit back and be quiet now.

[merlilot]

My vote is for Tom, and I think he is an Ainur as well, so ...

*celebrates right to declare self die-hard* "Thank you mortal elf!"

[*Varda*]

I always had the impression that the Ents and the Elves were the same age.

When the children awake, the thought of Yavanna will awake also

Silmarillion, of Aule and Yavanna

Manwe was speaking to Yavanna of the Ents, the tree shepherds. Yavanna was worried no one would look after the trees, and so the Ents would awake when the elves awoke at Cuivienen. That's what I think anyway.

I'm still not sure about Tom though. Perhaps we'll never know.

[lindil]

Bombadil is a wild card, according to JRRT he fits in no category. So of all the known Children of Iluvatar [and aule] Elves are the oldest race. Ents [interms of JRRT's writings] came on the scene after everyone else, but out of all the living members of the races still alive in M-E at the close of the 3rd age, treebeard is the last 'original waker', in the sense that Durin the 1st is long gone, Galadriel is at least a 3rd if not 4th generation elf, Cirdan could possibly be a first generation elf, we do not know, but I assume [ in terms of 'elders'] that Galadriel and Gandalf knew what they were talking about.

So that makes Bombadil oldest but not oldest member of any race. treebeard gets the oldest 'creature' prize.

Unless Gandalf was wrong about Cirdan....

[Legolas]

Bombadil.

About Treebeard's knowledge, from Letter No. 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.

[Evenstar1]

lathspell: thank you for clarifying that it was the elves, not Gandalf, who had called TB "fatherless." I would also like to clarify here that I, myself, did not say that Bombadil was the embodiment of Illuvatar: I merely pointed out that there has been widespread-speculation on the subject. Amarie: you can find discussion on this topic here, here, here, here and here, to name a few. (Oh dear, I hope you weren't being sarcastic -- I'm not! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) And Iarwain, thank you for pointing out that "Fangorn" is Elvish for "Treebeard." But it should be noted that Fangorn is also the name of the ancient forest, populated mainly by Huorns and a few Ents (mainly Treebeard, himself).

[lathspell]

It seems that Cirdan was also older than Treebeard, for he was one of the first elves. He never went to Aman, but along with the Calaquendi and the Moriquendi he also awoke near lake Cuivienen in the beginning, or so the Silmarillion seems to point out.
In that way it seems that Treebeard was in no way eldest, except in his own race, the Onodrim.

greetings,
lathspell

[bombur]

First of all, to me it is pretty obvious that Tom is Maia, propably one of Yawannas who became a sort of natural spirit. (Maybe forgetting ones purpose in the same fashion, but moreso then Radagast.) What comes to being fatherless... I'm sorry to say this and must ask all the christians around here to be tolerant on us non-monotheists, but I believe Tolkien does not claim Eru to have created the Valar or Maiar. In the begining there was Eru the one and the Ainur were with him.

I think you might be overlooking the exact origins of Ents. If my memory serves me right, it said in Silmarillion something like this, when Yawanna went to Eru with her grief for trees: "... and spirits will go amongst the kelvar and olvar and take residence (form?) there... and as do the children awake, so does the thought of Yawanna." This hints that Ents (and the great eagles) are fundamentally different from the eleves, men and dwarwes.

I mean, maybe they are bit more related to maiar the the children of Iluvatar. In the begining, smaller, minor spirits then those of maiar took forms as shepards of Kelvar and Olvar. So when the song was sung, Tom was there singing, and maybe, somewhere in the dark edges there was the spirit to become treebeard, listening. He took the mortal form and has been Fangorn for so long time that he may have forgotten what he once was.


Janne Harju

[Legolas]

How do you conclude that Tom is a Maia?

[Birdland]

In Chapter 2 of the Silm, "Of Aulë and Yavanna", (I just love that chapter) Aulë creates the Dwarf-Kind, but is required by Eru to let them sleep until the coming of The One's first people, the Elves, are created.

It was the coming of the Dwarves that inspired Yavanna to request that she might create "The Shepherd of the Trees", in order to have some protection for the natural world of Middle-earth against the Dwarves. But it is not really clear if the Ents were already in place when Durin's Folk were finally awakened.

If they were, then they would be the second oldest, because Treebeard hints that Elves taught language to the Ents. Or they may have been "placed" there at the same time that Eru awakened the dwarves, which would still put them neck-to-neck with Dwarves for second place.

But I'd have to agree that Tom was there first, in spirit form. (no backing for that, just a hunch.) Hmmmmm, maybe ol' Tom was the "Shepherd of the Trees" that Yavanna was speaking of?

[bombur]

Yes, Birdland. I know the time of the cration of ents. I merely think of their NATURE. Were theese "spirits" referred to "concious" before "entering" kelvar and olvar?

And Legalos, you pose interresting question. I do not know why I think Tom is a maiar. I just have always considered it obvious. I'll see if I can find a quote or two to back it.


Janne Harju

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I apologise if any of this has been stated before; I don't have time to read all replies at the moment.
Gandalf states that Tom will be "Last as he was First"...he also states that Fangorn is the "oldest of all living things." This seeming discrepancy may be excused if we consider that Tom is not actually alive; that he is a Power or a Force of some kind.
As for the elves...I believe the Ents were, indeed, awakened by them, but also that the Ents were there first.
So in the end it all comes down to what you believe Tom was... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Mattius]

So, if the "shepherds of the trees" were created to deal with dwarf axes, surely then the first dwarves out age all of the 3 things on the list stated on the first post?

[Voralphion]

Tolkien does not claim Eru to have created the Valar or Maiar

I might be wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought it says in the Silmarillion that the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) were in fact offspring of Illuvatar's thought. This would say that Eru did in fact create the Valar & Maiar.

[Evenstar1]

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.
-- Ainulindale, first sentence

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[Melichus]

Actually, I've been reading the Silmarillion, and aside from the Ainur/Valar/Maiar, the oldest ceatures in existence were either the Balrogs or the ancient creatures that had survived through the "spring of Arda".

Here are the possibilities:

Balrogs: They were created in secret by Melkor well before elves and they may have been created before dwarves and the creatures of Arda's "springtime".

The "spring of Arda" creatures: This is what the Silmarillion says: "But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadows of great trees, and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong. This is also after the fall of the first "spring" Arda, so it could be contested whether Balrogs were created before or after this. you could argue that Tom Bombadil was one of these ancient creatures, though we can't be sure.

Dwarves: Technically, they were created before anything else, but did not awaken until the elves had been up and running for a while. We still don't know when exactly the Balrogs were created, but both dwarves and Balrogs are front-runners.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Melichus ]

[busybee]

Treebeard I think because Yavanna creates them after talking to Manwe about protecting the trees.

But in the forests shall walk the shepherds of the trees.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ]

[lathspell]

The Ents were not created at that moment.

When the thought of Iluvatar awakens, so also will the thought of Yavanna.

Well, it ain't the actual quote, but it's saying the same thing.

When the Elves awoke, so also did the Ents, but this contradicts to what Treebeard told Merry and Pippin. For he told them that the Elves 'cured them from dumbness', so it can't be that they awoke at the same time.

Yet before all there were the Seven Fathers of Dwarves, so you might say that of all non-Ainur Durin is the eldest.

Well, it's quite a complicated thing to discuss, and has been discussed many times. I'll pop in again later.

greetings,
lathspell

[Galorme]

I would say that, in theory at least, that there are only really 2 ages of all things except men. 1) the moment Eru bought the Valar into being 2) Ea! Creation. From then everything, according to the music, was there. Like the elves, and the dwarves, and everything else, it was just waiting for them to wake up.

Sorry how horrible abstraction. Balrogs are Maia btw. And I would supose the oldest non Ainur thing would be whatever it was that Yavanna made first. I would guess it would be something simple like a flower. No sorry not a flower. Hmm like perhaps a sapling. Or maybe a grass.

[the mortal elf]

thanks guys. Sheesh, are you sure half of you didn't write the book? I bet you have whole chapters memorized [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] anyway, I started reading the Silmarillion, finally, and most of what you're saying seems to make sense. Thanks again!

[Rimbaud]

With regard to Treebeard:

...the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the sun upon this Middle Earth.

This sentence, when studied, reveal numerous qualifiers. Treebeard also says, "...and the trees are older than I am..." when referring to dark and deep areas of the forest. He is not in contention for the oldest living creature, merely the oldest 'living thing that still walks beneath the sun on this Middle Earth'. This suggests something to me of the ephemeral nature of Bombadil. The essence of his faery, for me, is that he does not truly belong or exist in 'this Middle Earth'.

My point, though, is that there are many older things than Treebeard in Middle Earth but they do not 'walk under the sun'. Bombadil is older but is unique in not truly existing on Middle Earth in quite the same way as anything else. Balrogs and first-born creatures and all sorts of Morgothian monsters are also older than Treebeard, IMHO.

[Evenstar1]

My point, though, is that there are many older things than Treebeard in Middle Earth but they do not 'walk under the sun'. Bombadil is older but is unique in not truly existing on Middle Earth in quite the same way as anything else. Balrogs and first-born creatures and all sorts of Morgothian monsters are also older than Treebeard, IMHO.

Interesting point, Rimbaud. It made me stop and consider whether spirits -- or those who could possibly be argued to be spirits -- (i.e. Ainur, Maiar, Bombadil, etc.) could legitimately have the label of "oldest," "older," etc. because these names imply the concept/restriction of Time. The Ainur, for instance, existed outside of the boundaries of Time, not entering into it until they descended to Middle Earth and became Valar. And even then, the concept of "death" could never have been applied to them, so would Time even have mattered (to them, at least)? Am I completely off-base with this line of reasoning?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So where are we and what have we got so far?

We seem to be agreeing that Bombadil doesn't count as a 'living thing'. Therefore Treebeard was the oldest at the time of the War of the Ring (according to Gandalf).

Did the Ents count as 'living' when they had not yet been awakened by the Elves?

[Rimbaud]

You miss my point. My express argument is that Treebeard is not the oldest but that Gandalf's statement is still accurate. Ignoring those of ex-Arda origins, ie. Maiar such as Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron, the oldest creatures dwelt deep below the earth and in other dark places.

[Bêthberry]

This suggests something to me of the ephemeral nature of Bombadil. The essence of his faery, for me, is that he does not truly belong or exist in 'this Middle Earth'.

What of the idea that Tom is the original theme of Eru,

And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music...Illúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme...

Tom's faerie elements seem similar to the music which shall be sung after the end of days,

...take Being in the moment of their utterance

At least, this is how I played the Bombadils some months ago in an RPG. Tom is Arda as it was meant to be before Melkor's discord arose. Nar has also argued this point here last week.

Bethberry

[GildorInglorion]

Trees and flower were creatd before the elves right? Maybe the first elves awoke a tree into tree-beard. So in one may he is older then the elves, and in another not. In any case, no now living elf is as old as him.

I agree that Bombadil is like outside everything, he doesn't connect with any other stories. I've heard someone suggesting he should be the reader of the book. So I can agrre with treebeard as the oldest in Arda, even if Bombadil existed before him.

[Helkasir]

I think Bombadil is eldest. He might actually be a run away vala, in my opinion. I mean, his whole singing thing... it fits right in with the creation of Ea.

[GildorInglorion]

Bombadill as essentially a vala, that's an interesting idea.
I have always felt it's a bit strange that there are eight male and 7 female vala (Melkor was male right)
Maybe Melkor was to be "The king" and below him it should be 7-7. In this case Bombadil Should not be a vala.
Maybe it is one of the already known Vala, perhaps Yavanna, dwelling in middle earth.
Once upon a time Oröme lived in ME with the elves, so I don't think it's entirely impossible.

[Helkasir]

the only thing that perturbed me about bobamdil is that He had the power to "Sing." Tolkien was alludin to something when he had all the crap about powerful music and iluvatar. Think about it. Even Luthien, a really powerful person, sang most of that which was powerful. She and Sauron had their own contest. For Bombadil to be powerful with his singing, it's possible that he's a vala. And, for another thing, the ring has no power over him, but even the most powerful have problems with it.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Helkasir ]