Arwen could've gone to the Grey Havens? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lumiel · 01-13-2003, 07:28 PM

I'm reading LOTR for the third time right now, and I was glancing in the appendix of the third book to brush up on Arwen and Aragorn's history (since among friends I'm Arwen) and I found some info on Legolas and how he went to the Havens. It said that Legolas left for the Havens with Gimli AFTER Aragorn died, so when Arwen said that she couldn't have left to the Havens even if she had wanted to, she lied! I'm just frustrated because I believe that if she could've gone to the Havens, she should have! I understand that she loved Aragorn and all, but she still had life left to live! (a lot of it being immortal) And she could've done something great with her immense time left. Tell me if I messed up on the info or not, I think that she should've gone with Legolas and Gimli (I laugh every time I picture poor Gimli in the Grey Havens surrounded by elves!)

maiden of the Shire · 01-13-2003, 07:31 PM

Don't get too angry! When Arwen decided not to go to the Havens and marry Aragorn, she chose to be mortal, therefore giving up her right to go. When an Elf chooses to be mortal, they still have long life, like Elros, but they still die. She chose to remain in Middle Earth, and let Frodo go in her place.

Susan Delgado · 01-13-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

She chose to remain in Middle Earth, and let Frodo go in her place

Not "in her place". As a Ring-bearer, it was Frodo's right to go to the Undying Lands irregardless of how many Elves did or did not go. Bilbo went for the same reason.

maiden of the Shire · 01-13-2003, 07:49 PM

Return of the King
"A gift I will give to you. For I am the daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Luthien and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes and if you then desire it."

So Frodo does take Arwen's place, whether he would otherwise have a right to go or not (which I agree, he does).

Also I think this passage explains Arwen's choice very well, she has chosen "both the sweet and the bitter..." she can not have the best of both worlds.

Maédhros · 01-13-2003, 09:49 PM

Just a quick observation. Arwen was not an elf, she was a Peredhil, just like her brothers Elladan and Elrohir. When their father Elrond departed from ME, they had to make the choice of remaining in ME or leaving with him to the Undying lands.

Legolas · 01-14-2003, 10:35 AM

Maédhros is correct.

Elrond's family/parents were half-elven - part man, part elf. Eru (God - Creator of Middle-earth) granted them a choice - to share the fate of elves (immortality) or the fate of man (mortality). Elrond chose to be immortal, and his children, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen had until he left to decide. Arwen chose to be mortal when Elrond left, and she was mortal forever. She was never immortal to begin with - she just had a while to make her choice. There's much more on this subject that you can read in my article here:

http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_halfelves.asp

Susan Delgado:

Quote:

As a Ring-bearer, it was Frodo's right to go to the Undying Lands irregardless of how many Elves did or did not go. Bilbo went for the same reason.

It was not a right. It was a privelege.

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Lalaith · 01-14-2003, 02:57 PM

Arwen and her brothers had a mother too, you know!
A mother who was pure Elf (daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn). That makes them rather more than half-elven...

Legolas · 01-14-2003, 07:37 PM

I am fully aware Arwen had an elven mother.

That's not really the focus. Of those dubbed 'half-elven,' Elwing was the only one that may have been exactly half and half.

The point was that they had blood from both man and elf, and subsequently, it was not clear as to which race they would share fate with. Did you read the article?

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

lore_master · 01-14-2003, 07:54 PM

right, but legolas and gimli did not go to the grwy havens they bulit a boat and sailed down the anduin(or some other river)

Minyaharmawen · 01-14-2003, 07:59 PM

um yes gimly and leoglas did go to the gray havens [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Legolas · 01-14-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

Quote:

In this year [1541 in the Shire Reckoning] on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in the Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.

Note the bold text: Legolas and Gimli did not set sail from the Grey Havens, nor did they accompany Gandalf there to say goodbye.

HCIsland · 01-14-2003, 09:20 PM

I know this is off topic and I apologize, but I always loved the way this is written. Using phrases like, "we have heard tell" and "it is said" implies that we don't know for sure. It is briliant the way Tolkien leaves this ambiguous, like it is real history. Marvelous.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

H.C.

01-13-2003, 07:28 PM	#1
Lumiel Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of Mordor (MWUAHAHAHA!...ahem...) Posts: 95	Arwen could've gone to the Grey Havens? I'm reading LOTR for the third time right now, and I was glancing in the appendix of the third book to brush up on Arwen and Aragorn's history (since among friends I'm Arwen) and I found some info on Legolas and how he went to the Havens. It said that Legolas left for the Havens with Gimli AFTER Aragorn died, so when Arwen said that she couldn't have left to the Havens even if she had wanted to, she lied! I'm just frustrated because I believe that if she could've gone to the Havens, she should have! I understand that she loved Aragorn and all, but she still had life left to live! (a lot of it being immortal) And she could've done something great with her immense time left. Tell me if I messed up on the info or not, I think that she should've gone with Legolas and Gimli (I laugh every time I picture poor Gimli in the Grey Havens surrounded by elves!)

01-13-2003, 07:31 PM	#2
maiden of the Shire Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the Shire Posts: 16	Don't get too angry! When Arwen decided not to go to the Havens and marry Aragorn, she chose to be mortal, therefore giving up her right to go. When an Elf chooses to be mortal, they still have long life, like Elros, but they still die. She chose to remain in Middle Earth, and let Frodo go in her place. __________________ "But as for us, we are Hobbits of the Shire, far to the North and West, beyond many rivers."

01-13-2003, 07:49 PM	#4
maiden of the Shire Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the Shire Posts: 16	Return of the King "A gift I will give to you. For I am the daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Luthien and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes and if you then desire it." So Frodo does take Arwen's place, whether he would otherwise have a right to go or not (which I agree, he does). Also I think this passage explains Arwen's choice very well, she has chosen "both the sweet and the bitter..." she can not have the best of both worlds. __________________ "But as for us, we are Hobbits of the Shire, far to the North and West, beyond many rivers."

01-13-2003, 09:49 PM	#5
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	Just a quick observation. Arwen was not an elf, she was a Peredhil, just like her brothers Elladan and Elrohir. When their father Elrond departed from ME, they had to make the choice of remaining in ME or leaving with him to the Undying lands. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

01-14-2003, 02:57 PM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Arwen and her brothers had a mother too, you know! A mother who was pure Elf (daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn). That makes them rather more than half-elven... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-14-2003, 07:37 PM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I am fully aware Arwen had an elven mother. That's not really the focus. Of those dubbed 'half-elven,' Elwing was the only one that may have been exactly half and half. The point was that they had blood from both man and elf, and subsequently, it was not clear as to which race they would share fate with. Did you read the article? [ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-14-2003, 07:54 PM	#9
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	right, but legolas and gimli did not go to the grwy havens they bulit a boat and sailed down the anduin(or some other river) __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

01-14-2003, 07:59 PM	#10
Minyaharmawen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14	um yes gimly and leoglas did go to the gray havens [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "It is said never go to the elves for advice for they will andswer with both No, and Yes"

01-14-2003, 09:20 PM	#12
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I know this is off topic and I apologize, but I always loved the way this is written. Using phrases like, "we have heard tell" and "it is said" implies that we don't know for sure. It is briliant the way Tolkien leaves this ambiguous, like it is real history. Marvelous. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program. H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

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