Talking Swords

[Thingol]

Anyone know how Turin's sword Gurthang/Anglachel was able to talk?

"And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer. Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly,that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

The Silmarillion, Pg. 278

I don't remember ever reading about another sword that could talk, anyone else do? Did Tolkien ever say anything about Gurthang's ability to talk?

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think it was an Elvish myth. IIRC, there were no witnesses (living) to the speaking sword.

[obloquy]

I don't think it's intended to be literal vocalization.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well I think it spoke.

After Beregond's death, the blade turned black -- that we know for sure -- in mourning. It must have had a mind of it's own.
Perhaps possesed by a 'houseless elf' (the rebellious soul, most often of a Noldo who refuses to return to the West and instead finds a way to remain) or a Maia, the blade spoke. Probably a houseless elf, seeing as how the blade was forged by the elves.

[Voronwe]

I too would like to think that the blade spoke to Turin, though obviously it is impossible to prove as Turin was alone and slew himself as soon as the sword had spoken.

Here is an interesting quote on the subject:

But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel towards Beleg, Melian looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'

This is a rather wild theory, but could it be that the sword was inhabited by its maker Eol's houseless spirit? I checked the Grey Annals to see if this could be possilbe, and it seems that Eol died nearly 90 years before Thingol gave Beleg the sword. I can certainly imagine Eol's spirit not wanting to go to the Halls of Mandos after his death. What do you think?

-Voronwe

[Thingol]

I think that seems very plausible to me, interesting thought, an elf inhabiting a sword [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Lindolirian]

I think Voronwe is right. When Eol was killed he cirsed his on sayin that he would die just the same as he did. Maybe his houseless spirit came an took control over his old sword hoping that somehow he would be able to betray the hand that weilds it and kill Maeglin.. Unfortunatly for Eol the sword never got around to killing Maeglin. But Eol's curse did work... Eol was cast from a precipice as puishment for killing Aredhel and in the fall of Gondolin, Maeglin was cast from the walls of Gondolin by Tuor who came to save Idril and Earendil his wife and son, from Maeglin who had since been in Angband and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. So Maeglin died the same as his father and the sword still talks...i dunno.

[obloquy]

I agree, that is a good theory.

[Eorl of Rohan]

I was actually wondering about that too. I think it unlikely that Eol's spirit would linger in a sword or something...

Maybe Tolkien just left that open to our own free imagination, like what happened to Earendil's sons.

[Angry Brandybuck]

The idea of it is very evocative of Excalibur the 'singing sword'. I don't recall ever knowing why that sword sang but it evokes the idea that a sword is more than just a tool, that it is a living thing.

Saying that the voice was 'cold' suggests the metallic ringing sound that a sword makes when being wielded (check out Tarantino's Kill Bill and listen real hard whenever someone has a sword unsheathed; every move they make with it makes the sword ring ever so slightly: beautiful)

[The Saucepan Man]

In a magical world, where Dragons, Orcs and Elves exist, I can certainly believe in a talking sword. But, within the mythology that Tolkien has given us, it is impossible that any Elf could have created a sentient being. Even the Valar were unable to create life. That privilege was reserved to Eru alone.

Possibly, Anglachel was imbued in its manufacture with some pre-existing spirit. However, while Eol might not have been the most noble of Elves, entrapping an Elvish spirit within a sword that he made seems even beyond him. Another possibility is that it was voluntarily inhabited by a wandering Elvish spirit. Indeed, the idea of Eol's fea inhabiting Anglachel is superficially appealing. I doubt, however, that Eol would ever have deigned to call Beleg his master. And why would any Elvish spirit want to inhabit a sword when the Halls of Mandos, and the possibility of fresh life, were beckoning?

I wonder, however, whether the answer may not lie in the material from which the sword was made. It is said that Anglachel was forged from a strange metal found by Eol in a stone that had fallen from the sky. Perhaps the metal itself was sentient in some way.

[Dininziliel]

This is all so timely! I really just entered this thread because it was the first short one on the list so I could see if my new old self was really back from the living, and . . . what should I find but the one thread that is bringing up the very question that occurred to me this morning as I was listening to The Silmarillion ?

Saucepan Man provides the perfect segue for my question--
When Beleg is asked what gift he would receive for leaving to watch over Turin, he asks for a sword. Now, during the description of this it mentions that the sword was made from iron that fell as a star. This has been mentioned as has Melian's warning to Beleg. My question pertains to a statement in between.

One other sword only in Middle-earth was like to it. That sword does not enter into this tale, though it was made of the same ore by the same smith; and that smith was Eol the Dark Elf . . .

What was the other sword? It couldn't have been Narsil/Anduril, could it? Another sword in UT?

???

[The Saucepan Man]

It couldn't have been Narsil/Anduril, could it?

No. Narsil was forged by Telchar the Dwarf and re-forged as Anduril in Rivendell in the Third Age.

Anglachel's twin was called Anguirel, but I think that's just about all we are told of it.

[Dininziliel]

Thanks, Saucepan Man! I kinda figured it wasn't Narsil/Anduril. Gee, but I wonder what the other sword was, though. Usually, Tolkien will follow up little things like this. Usually.

[NightKnight]

Anglachel's twin was called Anguirel, but I think that's just about all we are told of it.

It belonged to Eöl, but it was stolen by Maeglin.

[Kransha]

This is probably a pretty repetitive opinion, but; I believe that, like a lot of sections of the Silmarillion, this may have merely been one of those lovely mythic metaphors. There are the other events involving Gurthang that indicate that it might have a concience, but I don't believe swords could talk, even in such a magical, mystical world. Gurthang/Anglachel was an important trinket...err...weapon, so it's uses could be interpreted as things a living, breathing being might do. It's sort of like a "mood sword."

[the phantom]

I doubt that Eol's spirit is in the blade. The blade said-

..that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly..

That doesn't sound like something Eol would say. I can't imagine him calling Beleg "master" and I certainly don't think he would be the one to chide Turin for slaying someone "unjustly".

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I always knew that if they can make a jewel to store light, or a cell-phone out of stone, the elves could make a sword that talks...

But hey, tech-no-logical stuff aside, Gurthang is definitely a unique sword. Whether by curse or by possession, this sword just won't leave Turin. And if that sword is not magical, it would not have broken with Turin's death.

But this kindof gets flashy: Every hero has got his super-weapon... except for Tulkas' hands!

[symestreem]

So did Anguirel fall with Maeglin? What happened to it? Perhaps it was carried out of Gondolin.
Speaking of swords being carried out of Gondolin, how did Orcrist and Glamdring make it out of Gondolin? I seem to recall that one of them was Turgon's sword, but surely he was wearing it when he died. The orcs could have taken it out of Gondolin, but why? In the Hobbit, they hated the sword.
Are there any other instances of "matched pairs" of swords in Middle-earth?

[Dininziliel]

symestreem, that was an excellent question!

I would like to add a plea (or challenge, if your character prefers it), to our fellow dead who are more learned in the lore of ME to answer symestreem's question about matched pairs of swords. Perhpas someone will also know if the other sword made from the same materials as Anglachel was ever named by Tolkien.

[NightKnight]

Dininziliel, if you look above, it says its name is Anguirel.

[Dininziliel]

NightKnight--I have to admit that I'd glossed by the Anguirel reference; however . . .

I think the reason why I glossed is because of this bit of information on my mind:

One other sword only in Middle-earth was like to it. That sword does not enter into this tale, though it was made of the same ore by the same smith . . .

This means that Maeglin is counted as a different story from Turin Turambar? I'd assumed "this tale" included Maeglin.

Ah, well. I shall comfort myself with soothing murmers of, "It's a rich and complex series of tales & history. You've only read it three times . . . "

Thanks for the clarification!

[NightKnight]

This means that Maeglin is counted as a different story from Turin Turambar? I'd assumed "this tale" included Maeglin.

Well, Maeglin and Turin never met, so they aren't really in the same story.

[symestreem]

I cannot remember where, but were Orcrist and Glamdring also made out of meteorites? Meteorites... what does that remind me of... wasn't Narsil also made of a meteorite?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sauce, the Halls of Mandos was beckoning to Eöl? I think if someone has a prison sentence - a lengthy one - he tries to beat the rap.

But, yeah, Eöl's not in the Anglachel.

About the question of the "wandering" twain(Orcrist and Glamdring), Glamdring could have been sneaked out of Gondolin. Orcrist, on the other hand, is a more difficult scenario. Perhaps somebody sneaked in...

[Galadriel: ]If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galdhrim...would pass nigh and not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?

(LotR II 7)

Moria had become an abode of Orcs and a Balrog, and still Gimli managed to escape with the Book of Mazarbul (and his life)! Who knows what the Elves could have picked up in Gondolin?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Are Meteorites considered as stars? Varda made all of them... *mutters about genetic experiments on elves and men*

The Sword the Orcs recognised was Orcist.

The Great Goblin gave a truly awful howl of rage when he looked at it, and all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, clashed their shields, and stamped. They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist, Goblin-Cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter. They hated it worse any one that carried it

Hmm, as which sword Turgon owned, I could not find it in the Silmarillion or LOTR... The fall of Turgon was said to have occured at the overthrow of his tower though.

..., and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the people of his household, until the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin.

This taken literally, means that Turgon fell to his death. I don't know whether that means he was crutching the sword while falling though.

[Gothmog]

Ok, first time I'm posting here for a looong time so you must excuse me if seem a bit out of shape. This thread doesn't seem to have been updated lately but I felt I had to contribute to the discussion.

The sword that Turgon once owned was Glamdring. I can't remember exactly where in the books I've read it, but I found this on The Barrow-Downs Encyclopedia (regarding Gandalf):

In this same adventure, the wizard came upon the sword Glamdring, which once belonged to the King of Gondolin ages before.