Making it real.

Through my childhood, everytime I read a story, I wrote another story about how the first could have been real. I read mostly fiction so this worked out quite well.

The Lord of the Rings was no exception, I imagined hundreds of ways that somehow, Middle-Earth was really real and that all the dwarfs, hobbits and elves dwindled out of excistance. So what if man kind had no record of ever living in Gondor, or Numenor, it could happen.

What has your mind told you to make Tolkiens imagination come to life. I envisioned Tolkien at a young age learning magic or a spell to go back in time. He arrives in the Shire in the 4th age and through his travelling, he descovers the secrets and writes his books which everyone believes are fiction.

A little far-fetched, but it make sense to me. This also has something to do with Numenor being Atlantis and Valinor disapearing and forming Heaven. It all clicks if you use your imagination.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Tolkien wrote two unfinished stories very similar to the one you imagined: about travelling back in time to different ages, like Númenor before the drowning. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
These stories are in HoME 5 'The Lost Road and other writings' and HoME 9 'Sauron Defeated' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I strongly recommend them to you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Frodo2968thewhite]

I do believe that we live in Arda, and that this time existed long ago. And somewhere I heard that Lord of the Rings was an oral tradition, passed for centuries until it came to professor Tolkien, and he wrote it. I'm sure that if he were alive today, he would tell the truth about where these stories came from.

[drigel]

Didnt JRRT originally set it up as the whole ME story come from a man called Elfwine, who by accident came upon Eressea and was befriended?

I always liked to think that the age of JRRT's ME was in an epoch between earlier ice ages, where glaciers literally wiped away from the face of the earth any remnants of the old world [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Hmm- I diagnose extreme obsession. Well, according to the Hobbit the little fellas still exist. They're just good at hiding! If I ran into one on my travels I might start to agree...

[Yavanna228]

I suppose if you really have a good imagination or if you are very, very into the books that you could suppose that long ago there was Middle Earth as Tolkien wrote it. I personally don't think of Middle-Earth in that way, but to each his/her own. If indeed Middle Earth was real and hobbits or elves or dwarves still remained, I wonder if Man would have down-played their existence by making the hobbits some fantasy, or would have made the noble elves into the image we have of them today. Doing something like that would almost be what the Celts were supposed to have done to earlier, mightier inhabitants of Ireland, playing them down till they were no more than leprechauns and fairies to the imagination.
To agree with Lyra, if indeed there were hobbits or some race of ME left, then seeing would be believing for me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Didnt JRRT originally set it up as the whole ME story come from a man called Elfwine, who by accident came upon Eressea and was befriended?

Yes, but he also explored other possible ways for learning the stories of the first ages, as time travelling [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I always liked to think that the age of JRRT's ME was in an epoch between earlier ice ages, where glaciers literally wiped away from the face of the earth any remnants of the old world

In fact Tolkien placed the end of the Third Age at about 6,000 years in the past, that means that the stories are after the ice ages, and before the worldwide flood. There is an interesting thread talking about this:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001437

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

I think you're very very right. I've always thought the Books were based on real facts. Middle Earth is Europe, Asia and Africa, the Sunlands (Easterness) are the Americas and Valinor...
Let's look at Melkor. He, frankly, is the devil. Now, was he based on the Lucifer myth, or was the Lucifer myth based on Melkor?
*Just a hunch* [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[the guy who be short]

Of course Middle-Earth existed.
the line of the dwarves ended because, frankly, they werent interested in... er... making smaller versions of themselves!
The elves acknowledged that it was the time of Men, and sailed away.
Hobbits, as somebody said earlier, do still exist, but hide.
Eru showed Tolkien this through his dreams, and Tolkiens task in life wass to record it so we could see the true history of the World.
The face of the World has changed and "the west of middle earth" is probably Portugal and spain now.
it all fits, people.

[drigel]

Amarie your correct of course, according to canon. I just think, time being relative and everything hehe, that its more plausible for me in my mind that it's further back because we as a species go further back. I think that better explains the "lack of physical evidence" (toungue in cheek) on the geological side. 6000 yrs aint that long geolocially speaking, no? It's my logic i grant you that, but in my mind it makes more sense. Tragic but true

That's the spirit guy who be short,
everything just has to click and form a puzzle. I guess though, if you asked a scientist about it, he/she would think you crazy.

[Melhilion]

This is a very interesting thread.

I know JRRT was inspired to write book about the past by learning about Greek and Norse mythology. This means ME has many gods and goddess. Now i don't belive there can be gods like these but the fact that his maps of ME are so detailed that he only could have drawn them if he were acutally there. So in conclusion i think it is very possible to be real but i think he might have turned it into a story but exaterated the character just a little. But the fact that Greeks and Norse belived in their gods and the fact that there is artifacts that prove they belived in many gods meens that there could very well be a ME and other races like elves, dwarfs, and Hobbits

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Frankly, this scares me. I believe that JRRT made ME to be our world earlier on, but that he made it up. Of course, I think of it as being real, and more than real, but still, Tolkien was a fiction writer. I don't think a myth could be passed down so secretly that only he would know it and write it down, and nobody else would recognize it. Just my opinion, though.

~Menelien

[Brionna]

At the risk of sounding harsh... is this thread a joke? Let's give JRRT the credit he's due- because of his amazing and talented *imagination,* these books and this story exists for our enjoyment. I think it detracts from his authorship when it's suggested that the stories are real historical accounts (not to mention that it smells very close to obessive compulsive thinking).

[Arwen_Evenstar]

OMG.
MOOD!
OMG!!!
Me and my friend would sit for ages thinking about this, you read our minds!!! We even said that Numenor was Atlantis! We didn't theorise how Tolkien found out though...

In one of David Day's Tolkien related books, he says that Valinor was sucked from the circles of the world, so thats that one. Numenor: Atlantis.
Races(elves, hobbits etc.): Elves: Perhaps they were 'bred out'? Though Elf/mortal relationships were rare, they could have happened beyond the ones we know of. Haven't you ever seen someone who was really beautiful, or handsome, or graceful and just thought: ELF!!!
Or someone short, stocky and stubborn and thought: DWARF!!!
I think that if you put me and my brothers together we'd make a very tall hobbit. Im short, bout 5 feet 4, Gary has Curly brown hair and big feet, and Jason has hairy feet( [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]).
Well thats my two cents for now...i made notes about this somewhere, when i find them ill give you a shout...
~nat~

[Dain]

but the fact that his maps of ME are so detailed that he only could have drawn them if he were acutally there

You must have a very low opinion of the master's imagination. I agree with Brionna, and I also think you've got everything backwards. Maybe I'm just too much of a scientist... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ June 03, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[drigel]

I dont know whats funnier my logic or galadrial hehe dont be scared.

My thinking is that the nature of mythology is that (by word of mouth) its been passed down through the generations. For me - I feel that the seeds that started the foundations of all mythos came at a time much much earlier than a mere 6000 yrs ago. You have to buy in to the idea that every 10-20 thousand years there is a general global cataclysm where globally civilization gets wiped out and we start from scratch, again - literally. And other than the mysterious unearthly insight by people like JRRT, we have no idea what has transpired before [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I know Im wierd but thats my logic for keeping it real. Like I said tragic but true.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[drigel]

And seriously, are we that far along scientifically to be that positive about our history? I think we have just begun to scratch the surface.. think about it

[greyhavener]

I found several sources particularly helpful in studying Tolkien and myth:

Joseph Pearce's Tolkien: Man and Myth,
Bradley J. Birzer's Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth: Understanding Middle Earth ;
This site with links to Tolkien's own Mythopoeia and several excellent articles on the subject of Tolkien andMyth: http://www.geocities.com/domachowski/myth.html

I'm sure someone has quoted this on the forum before: Tolkien's own words concerning myth:

We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed, only by myth-making, only by becoming a 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

I think it detracts from his authorship when it's suggested that the stories are real historical accounts.

Now, why would that be? I believe that they are true, and that either Eru told the Professor what the real account was, or that it was an oral tradition. But either way, JRR Tolkien was the only one to put it into writing. If it was oral, then he was the only one in his line, for thousands and thousands of years, to write it. His father didn't write it! And if indeed Eru told him, why would he choose JRR Tolkien? Because Tolkien is the best writer of all time. And even if/though they are true, he still gets all the credit in the world. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Frodo2968thewhite]

This means ME has many gods and godesses.

I think that Iluvatar is God, and that the Valar are the highest of the Angels & Saints, that the Maiar are Saints too(take wizards), and that they all reside in Valinor (which is heaven). And the Elves worship Varda and Iluvatar, just as the Irish honor God AND St. Patrick. Therefore, there is only ONE God in Arda, and many Angels & Saints. Really, I think that Arda is the history of the World. The evidence is all around us!
Numenor:Atlantis
Valinor:Heaven
Morgoth:Satan
etc, etc, etc.

[drigel]

Excellent post Greyhavener! I think enjoying Tolkien and relishing in the mystery of Myth goes hand in hand.

[the guy who be short]

Remember Tolkien was gonna write a story bout time travel? And one of the characters was shown a language through his dreams, the languages of sindarin and quenya? (this is in HoME 5, The lost road)
Well, maybe he was trying to write down what actually happened to him. I mean, look at it. Whole languages, and more than 1! Alphabets! A whole history the like of which has never been seen before. Surely this is the work of Eru?

By the way, dont worry about scientists thinking i'm mad. most people do.

[drigel]

this sums it up for me

http://www.geocities.com/domachowski/mythopoeia.html

[Melhilion]

You must have a very low opinion of the master's imagination. I agree with Brionna, and I also think you've got everything backwards. Maybe I'm just too much of a scientist... Im very sorry if this is a useless debate but have you even met JRRT, I do, however give him credit for making an amazing series of books but there is just so much to it. But I guess he lived to be over 80 years old and could very well taken the time to think up such an amazing story. But anyway what I said before was just my therory

[Lush]

The similarity between Numenor and Atlantis was intentional on Tolkien's part. I'd provide a quote, but my books are currently half-way around the world. You can always trust me, however. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Burzdol]

You really provoke the mind. That question has provoked me for years. I completely agree with the back in time theory. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I would like to agree, once again, with Brionna, though I wouldn't put it exactly as she did. I believe that Tolkien made Middle Earth up. Of course, he could have used the real world for inspiration, but I certainly don't believe, Tolkien fanatic though I am, that once there were Elves somewhere around Massachusetts, or that the only reason I don't see Hobbits around town is that they hide behind trash cans every time I round the corner. Or that if someday somebody managed to dig down deep enough, they would find a bunch of heavily bearded short people digging for treasure, or a big guy made of shadow and fire, with wings or without.

~Menelien

[Iarwain]

At first I used to imagine that Middle-Earth was actually in the middle of the earth: down there really really deep. Now, another fantasy (D'ni) has taken away that space. But after I discovered that Middle-Earth was just an old english term for the earth, I began to imagine it around the mediterranean sea. The presense of mythology in the Silmarillion mainly led me to this conclusion. then, eventually, I began to see it in western europe, which is where it stands today.

Iarwain

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

Sorry if I burst anyones bubble, but I think the time travel theory is just a wee bit obsessive. Middle Earth, to me, is neither real or imagined, there's so much we don't know. Tolkien, for a start. We can't guess his motives or thoughts because we aren't the guy. Middle Earth takes things from everywhere; Atlantis, Religion, Myths and so on, proving Tolkiens want to create a history for England. I think of M.E almost as a dream, coming through the subconcious; its magic in the way that a sunset is.

[drigel]

This may be too deep for some sorry. This is a tenuous and slippery subject thats hard to break down and spell out. Mystery touches people in different ways.

It's all about your perception. I think keeping in mind the original spirit in which the books were written helps too. I love diving in head first into ME. It's as real as Beowulf, Morte dAurther, and the Iliad... - why not? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] They all have foundations that derive from splinters of Truth. JRRT has presented his spin on fairy tales. Its as valid as any other view on the subject. Thats the mystery: where / how did those splinters originate?Aesthetics, heroism, sacrifice etc are all a part of just about every myth I can think of. We all see things in a different way but truth is truth. Why is that? Where and how did that originate? JRRT's perception, or his own way of "seeing" his particular physical or metaphysical reality led him to take on the role of sub-creator, and make a world (or a place) that we can all enjoy. Nothing sacrilegious or sanctimonious about it. Just an offer of an alternative perception. I am not confident enough to say that "this was the past" or "that was the past", when what we are talking about here is, in my mind, way, way before written / verifyable / quantifiable history.

It's like when i read sci-fi. Whats the point if you dont really think deep down that - possibly - what i am reading could very well be a possible and plausible reality... or is it just my perception...? JRRT himself said ME was not Europe in a different time, it was Europe in a different imagination.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Oh, I always imagine books that I read and movies that I see to happen in our world, even if a different version of it, but when asked whether I actually believe that it was this world, I am a bit surprised, and would say no.

~Menelien

[drigel]

There is a view out there that if one creates something from out of their imagination, what they are doing is perceiving subconsiously something out of space/time that is not in their reality but is nonetheless real. Some people have it and some people dont. The essense of aethetics/creativity. I know sorry way too deep.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I love diving in head first into ME. It's as real as Beowulf, Le Morte d'Arthur, and the Iliad... - why not?

I agree with you, drigel, that's the same I think: why not? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
The Iliad was considered a tale with no real basis, until Heinrich Schliemann discovered the ruins of Troy ... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lush]

All reality can be subjective. Like this post. Your brain is telling you you're reading it, but how much do you trust your brain?

See what college does to you?!?!?!?!

*a short period of head rapidly connecting with surface of desk*

For someone, little hairy-footed people and Barrow-Wights ( [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) can be as real as the lager I am currently consuming. It's their right to think and feel this way. Errors in factual knowledge, however, must stand corrected: the similarities between the history of Tolkien's world and the myths and stories of our world was largely intentional, and is not, I believe, a mysterious signifier of the book's relation to (subjective or objective or whatever the %$#@) reality.

[FingolfintheBold]

This is a great post, but most people won't like what I have to say. JRR Tolkien was the greatest writer of all time, and a marvelous one at delving into the thoughts and mind of man to find the part of us that longs to wake beside a clear lake under elven-stars. But as far as the world being a once physical place, the professor himself wpould have disagreed. He was a Catholic christian, and took the Bible's view of creation and man's history literally. Now there are a stinking lot of theories that could come off of that, for those that know some theology, but i'll spare you!

[HCIsland]

Tolkien very cleverly tied these books to our reality in entries in the prologue to LotR and in appendix F - On Translation. The idea is that these stories are translated from old texts that he had found that were written long ago by the likes of Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. The Red Book of Westmarch and Bilbo's Translations From The Elvish which, I think, is meant to be the Silmarilion. You don't need to make Tolkien a time traveller to make this work, just and expert on languages which, of course, he is.

Having said that, I agree with those people that the similarities between his work and previous mythology and legions was entirely intentional, but for those that seriously think that this actually happened, I think they need to seriously develop their critical thinking skills.

It's fun to pretend, but when imagination turns to delusion then there exists a problem. These are works of fiction that where entirely invented by one man. Reading entries in books like Unfinished Tales and the History of Middle Earth series, one can even see how his ideas developed and changed over time. The Redbook of Westmarch and Translations From The Elvish never existed and to seriously suggest otherwise is to undermine the genius behind their creation.

For those that love to pretend and imagine (and don't we all, or else why would we be so drawn to this work in the first place) then pretend away but please, keep one foot planted in reality.

Editted to add: What geological (not theological) evidence is there that there was a flood that covered the entire world less than 6000 years ago? Please share.

As for Tolkien's time frame, it seems to correspond fairly closely to the orthedox Judeo-Christian age of the world, which I doubt is a coincidence.

H.C.

[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[drigel]

amarie, fingolfin, and HCI - all nice posts! And (thank goodness) since we are all governed by both right and left hemispheres of the brain (some less or more hehe) - I can and will agree with everything you guys said. I still say 6000 years is too short a period. What "the beginning of recorded history" for some is the "beginning of time" to others .... hmmmm

[Gorwingel]

The only time that I ever thought that Middle Earth could be real and that we were living in it was when I read the part in the prologue, where it says

Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerious fomerely than they are today

That part really strikes me because when I first read it I was like "wait, could this be real", I of course wish it was real (well I don't know, some of the parts in the books are kind of scary) but I just look at the stories with the same eye as any famous legend, like King Arthur. Something that never really happened, but you wish you could have that same romantic journey where you rush off with a sword, your friends, and you go save the world (or just some very hansome prince [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[drigel]

Genetic memory: we all have some little thing in all of us that is a part of someone who is our direct decendant. Its this tiny little mutated piece of a gene that was part of someone who walked talked and breathed the air of a much younger world. That, I think, keeps it real [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]