The White Ring... principal of the Three=? UT

[Iarhen]

It is stated in the UT that Galadriel´s ring, Nenya or the White Ring, was the principal ring of them all. And even though CTolkien says that in LOTR the fact is stated contrary to what the UT say, Ive always wondered...

Which version survived? Because in the Silmarillion and in LOTR, Vilya is stated as the mightiest of the 3. But Nenya is stated in the UT as the principal one.

Might it be that even though Vilya was the mightiest ring, the commanding ring among the 3 was Nenya? The one that allowed its bearor to see what the other weilders think, just as the One Ring does (all proportions kept)?

[Legolas]

Manwe is Lord of Arda and could be said to be the 'principal' Vala, but Melkor is mightiest:

The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.

I suppose the same difference could exist here.

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Finwe]

Hmmm... I think that among the Rings themselves Vilya was the greatest. But when it passed to Elrond, and Galadriel continued to wield Nenya, then the tables turned. As Tolkien himself says, the Rings give power according to the measure of their bearer. Galadriel is much more powerful than Elrond, so Nenya would give her a lot more power than Vilya would give Elrond, making Nenya seem more powerful than Vilya.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

'Galadriel is much more powerful than Elrond' excuse me, where is this written? Granted G might have an edge through her greater age and the fact she'd lived in Aman but balanced against that is Elrond's Maiar blood from Melian mother of Luthien. Not to mention the fact that *he* was never cursed by the Valar, (unlike certain Noldorin Princesses we might name!).

My personal opinion is Tolkien upgraded Nenya as part of his late, and decidedly unconvincing atttempt, to exalt Galadriel, (with whom he seems to have become besotted) and whitewash her of any blame in the Revolt of the Noldor.

But the published word takes precedent over the Professor's drafts so IMO Vilya remains the 'mightiest of the three' and Galadriel a rebel for whom the way to Valinor is closed, (until she rejects the One Ring) and Celeborn a Sindarin Elf of Middle Earth rather than a Teleri of Alqualonde.

[ May 26, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Finwe]

Where does it say that she was "cursed by the Valar"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Galadriel retained her "abilities" from the time that she left Aman. The only thing remotely resembling a curse on her is that she could not return to Valinor, since she was one of the leaders of the Rebellion of the Noldor.
As for Elrond, undoubtedly, he is one of the greatest Elf Lords in Middle-earth. But he is still Half-elven, whereas Galadriel is of the House of Finarfin, and a full-blooded Elf. Elrond can be considered as a sort of half-breed (if you pardon my saying so, I don't mean it as an insult), and so, his "powers" would definitely be lesser than Galadriel's.
And from your post, I take it that you don't really like our dear Elf princess. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

Galadriel is much more powerful than Elrond, so Nenya would give her a lot more power than Vilya would give Elrond, making Nenya seem more powerful than Vilya.

Indeed, I missed this quote. This quote seems to indicate otherwise:

In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

As if to say 'If Galadriel can, then *certainly* Elrond can.'

[the phantom]

Elrond can be considered as a sort of half-breed (if you pardon my saying so, I don't mean it as an insult), and so, his "powers" would definitely be lesser than Galadriel's.

Why? I'm not remembering anyplace where anything was mentioned that might in any way lead one to believe that.

Luthien was a half-breed too, and that certainly didn't make her lesser.

Or are you saying Elrond is lesser because he has man's blood and not all elf blood?

Well, number one, if man's blood automatically makes one inferior, then Maia blood must automatically make one superior, so it would balance out, right?

Secondly, that really doesn't matter because man's blood doesn't automatically make one inferior. Turin was a man, and yet he practically ruled over Nargothrond (an elf kingdom) after he got there.

But he is still Half-elven, whereas Galadriel is of the House of Finarfin, and a full-blooded Elf.

Look at who Elrond's mortal forefathers were- Beren and Tuor, two of the greatest men ever. Some of his other ancestors were Finwe, Thingol, Melian, Fingolfin, Turgon, Luthien, and Earendil, so who cares that Galadriel is "of the House of Finarfin". Elrond was the descendant of the ruling houses of the Noldor and the Sindar, and of the three houses of the Edain (and he had Maia blood).

As Legolas pointed out before, Tolkien basically stated that 'if Galadriel could, Elrond *certainly* could'.

Elrond was a beast.

[Mahal]

And...Tolkien never said that Galadriel was higher, or mightier as Elond.
(and if he did my mistake [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I find myself, for once [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], in full agreement with Legolas. That quote surely does sound like the Professor considered Elrond something special.

Finwe, as one of the rebellious Noldor Galadriel automatically falls under the Doom of Mandos and the Ban against Return. Her parting song 'Namarie' makes it quite clear she considers herself, (at that time) doomed to permanent exile.

As for the 'half-breed' issue - ever hear of hybrid vigor? In fact there is some reason to believe that the Half-Elven, (Mortal and Immortal alike) are more powerful than ordinary Elves.

Glorfindel, who is very special being reborn and an emissary of the Valar, cannot heal Frodo but Elrond Half-Elven can. And Gandalf speaks of Aragorn to Frodo as if he is on the same plane as Glorfindel, at least re: power to fight the Nazgul. And let us not forget that Isildur has the power to bind the souls of an entire people to Middle Earth, (contrary to the usual fate of Men) until they've atoned for their oathbreaking.

No the evidence suggests the Half-Elven are very powerful indeed, in some ways more powerful than the 'purebreds' of either kind.

[Legolas]

I didn't mean Elrond was light years ahead of Galadriel or anything - each of the Wise have their own strengths or 'specialties.' It was just to say that Elrond too had his strong points and a great 'power' about him. Both were very powerful and served similar roles in the story of The Lord of the Rings.

As Tolkien himself says, the Rings give power according to the measure of their bearer. Galadriel is much more powerful than Elrond, so Nenya would give her a lot more power than Vilya would give Elrond, making Nenya seem more powerful than Vilya.

If we use this logic, then Narya is the greatest. Gandalf was far greater than Galadriel and Elrond.

Elrond was a beast.

Heh - I don't really imagine him to be a beast. Make sure you steer clear of the 'Elrond's a wuss' thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean for this thread to turn out as an "Elrond is a wuss" thread. All I'm trying to say is, Galadriel seems "mightier" than Elrond (to me at least), and therefore, Nenya is also mightier.
But looking back, I think that they each had their own strength. We all know that the Elven Rings were made to protect, heal, and guard, not attack. Look at the defenses of Lothlorien compared to those of Imladris. Lothlorien had to put up with Dol Guldur, later Moria, and Mordor. Imladris (I think) got it slightly easier, since it was farther away. Galadriel had to "defend" against more than Elrond did, so perhaps we just "see" more of what Nenya can do rather than what Vilya can do.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"I didn't mean Elrond was light years ahead of Galadriel or anything"

Me neither. Or that the Isildurioni are the equals of wizards. Just that the Half-Elven's mixed heritage gives them certain unique strengths and advantages in some areas over their 'purebred' kin. Maybe it's that Maiar strain from Melian.

It has been suggested by Marnie Goodbody, (of The_Istari list) that Galadriel flagrantly and unecessarily overuses Nenya in a slightly hubristic attempt to imitate Melian of Doriath and a *very* hubristic effort to recreate the timelessness of Aman in Middle Earth.

Tolkien himself writes disapprovingly of the Elven tendency to 'embalm' as he puts it the past and regard change as an evil. In fact if I read his 'Letters' correctly he seems to be saying that the Three Elven Rings were a mistaken attempt to forstall the natural and necessary 'fading' of the Elves and so flawed in their very conception.

Certainly in the UT story of the making of the Elessar Galadriel's detachment from and resentment towards the natural cycle of life and change in general is made chillingly clear. As is her desire to recreate a little piece of Aman for herself.

[Finwe]

Now that you mention it, it does make sense. I think Galadriel would be the person to flagrantly use Nenya to imitate Melian's Girdle. After all, she did spend a great deal of time there, and Melian did teach Galadriel a lot. I'm sure that Galadriel admired her mentor a lot, and wanted to create the same "effect" around her little kingdom.
I also recant my statement about Elrond's inferiority compared to Galadriel. I think you are right about Isildur's line. Elrond probably does have the best of both worlds, in his half-elven blood.

[Legolas]

Morwen is quite correct about Tolkien's thoughts of the elves' tendencies:

But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs.

Galadriel's realm more so than Elrond's exhibits this.

Finwe stated:

and therefore, Nenya is also mightier.

What Tolkien states as fact ranks over readers' "opinions":

Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three.

[Westerly Wizard]

I don't desire at all to contend that Vilya is not the mightiest, but I think it is quite explicit that Galadriel is greater than Elrond.

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years" (UT).

Now greater in power does not mean greater than strength: this is well illustrated in Tulkas, who, though he is the strongest of the Valar, is not among the Aratar. Thus Elrond might be more capable of supplanting Sauron, though Galadriel could be greater than him.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Elrond was not a Noldo.

[The Saucepan Man]

Look at the defenses of Lothlorien compared to those of Imladris. Lothlorien had to put up with Dol Guldur, later Moria, and Mordor. Imladris (I think) got it slightly easier, since it was farther away.

During the War of the Ring maybe, but Imladris was surrounded by (and presumably under seige from) hostile forces in great numbers during both Sauron's invasion of Eriador in the Second Age and the Witch King's invasion of Arnor in the Third Age.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

quote: But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right...ect.

I must say I was really surprised to read this, I'd always thought Tolkien considered his Elves perfect - it was a great surprise to learn his opinion of them was so close to mine, (not bad but gravely misguided in certain matters). I guess I didn't read the Works closely enough.

What exactly is meant by 'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldo'? that she was the most powerful? the most prominent leader? or merely the best known? 'Great' can of course mean all those things.

And in any case this has little to do with any comparison to Elrond who was not only not a Noldo but combined the Royal lines of all three High Elven Kindreds with the blood of the greatest Heroes of Men *and* that of a divine Maia. Quite a heritage.

[ May 28, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[the phantom]

Morwen Tindomerel said this...

What exactly is meant by 'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldo'? that she was the most powerful? the most prominent leader? or merely the best known? 'Great' can of course mean all those things.

That is exactly why I never put too much stock in those "greatest" quotes (about Luthien, and about Feanor and Galadriel). I would assume that those quotes mean that in Tolkien's overall definition of greatness (combination of whatever characteristics he thought were the most important) that they came out ahead. But BY NO MEANS do they mean the MOST POWERFUL (or anything else for that matter, they were merely his overall appraisal of their character from his perspective, and possibly he was considering things that we would choose not to and not weighing things that we think are important).

And it doesn't matter anyway, because like Eomer of the Rohirrim said, Elrond wasn't a Noldo.

[Finwe]

SaucePan Man, Imladris was indeed besieged during Sauron's invasion of Eriador and at other times, but so was Lothlorien. At least Imladris was forewarned of such an assault, and had more time than Lothlorien to prepare for it. Imladris is also farther off, which would give them added time.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, but since Imladris resisted attacks by Sauron's forces just as Lothlorien did, Lothlorien's resistance in itself tells us very little about who was the more powerful out of Galadriel and Elrond. If anything, the fact that Imladris had a much smaller population tends to indicate that it relied much more on the powers of its "ruler" (ie Elrond) than on force of arms in its defence.

[Finwe]

But the thing is, how do we know that Imladris had a smaller population? Just because it took up less land doesn't mean that it contained less people. Imladris could have had a very high population density, whereas Lothlorien had a very low population density.

[Westerly Wizard]

I am well aware that Elrond is not a Noldo, but I thought most people would be loth to say that Elrond is as great as Feanor (and I will spare the subjective nature of "great")

[the phantom]

I am well aware that Elrond is not a Noldo, but I thought most people would be loth to say that Elrond is as great as Feanor (and I will spare the subjective nature of "great")

Ah, clever tactic. And you're right, you wouldn't catch me saying that Elrond is as great as Feanor. But that would be my definition of greatness (in which Galadriel is not even close to Feanor). As far as Tolkien's definition goes, he may have very well thought that Elrond was greater than both Feanor and Galadriel (eg if Tolkien weighs his definition of greatness heavily on humility, not being a rebel, not being an "embalmer" ect, then maybe Elrond comes out ahead in his eyes).

But this debate really isn't about overall greatness at all, it's about sheer POWER, and I believe that Elrond had more (and according to his letter, Tolkien did too).

[Westerly Wizard]

I don't think you it would be a very valid argument to say that Tolkien though Elrond was greater than Feanor either, one I won't even contend further.

And again, Tolkien's letter only contends that Elrond could be expected to supplant the Dark Lord if Galadriel could, which does not necessarily indicate power any more than the word Great does, for it takes strength to supplant, not just power. And as I mentioned earlier with Tulkas, strength most certainly does not equate with power.

[the phantom]

I generally look at strength as strictly physical power, and everyone knows that it takes a lot more than big biceps to take down Sauron, otherwise any decent warrior such as Eomer could do it. I think that strength is a component of power.

I would say it this way; it takes power, not just strength, to supplant Sauron. A decent way to gauge power would be combining the following- the amount of knowledge you have, strong control over your own will, the ability to master others' will, amount of skills and how advanced they are, mastery over matter, and ability in battle.

That's my definition of power anyway, and I think that Elrond would have to be ahead in the power department for Tolkien to say what he did.

[The Saucepan Man]

But the thing is, how do we know that Imladris had a smaller population?

I don't think that we really do. I was making an assumption, although a pretty fair one, I think.

But, either way, it doesn't take the discussion much further forward, since the point I was making was that the relative capability of Imladris and Lothlorien to defend themselves against Sauron's forces does not really (in itself) assist much in assessing the relative power of Elrond and Galadriel.

[Iarhen]

Another quote of the Unfinished Tales brings me a lot of doubt.

In the book, Galadriel is stated to be the "greatest of the eldar" with Feanor, though wiser than he.

I do not know if this is a translation error, because the book I own is in spanish (the only book I was able to get).

But if its not mistaken, Galadriel is greater than Elrond in Tolkiens mind. Making the notable exception of Luthien (she was more powerful than Galadriel or Feanor thanks to the fact that she was half elven and half maiar; it was a 50% share of each race; unlike Elrond, who is really far from that kind of nearness to a maia, whom I think has a 1/8 of maia blood in his system).

And, lastly, Lothlorien and the kingdom of Thranduil were the most important elven regions during the War of the Ring on the 3rd age, according to the UT. Not Imladris.

Besides, Elrond was NOT reading Sauron´s mind as Galadriel was. Another fact that states Galadriels superiority over Elrond... all those long years back to her begginings in Aman towards the 3rd age must have given her a slight experience and knowledge advantage over Elrond...

[the phantom]

In the book, Galadriel is stated to be the "greatest of the eldar" with Feanor, though wiser than he.

It doesn't mean she was more powerful.

And, lastly, Lothlorien and the kingdom of Thranduil were the most important elven regions during the War of the Ring on the 3rd age, according to the UT. Not Imladris.

That's because Imladris wasn't really a region or a kingdom. It was a pretty little refugee camp. Like Saucepan Man already said, it didn't have an army of elves running around like Lothlorien and Mirkwood.

And also, what about the fact that Elrond could control a river? This is from FOTR, Many Meetings-

"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford."

How often do you see someone command nature? Sounds pretty powerful to me.

And on the page before that, here's another quote-

"Still that must be expected," said Gandalf to himself. "He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can fortell."

As if to say, if Elrond can't see the future for him, then there's no knowing for sure. Elrond has a lot more power than people give him credit for, mainly because he doesn't use it outright like Galadriel does.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"But if its not mistaken, Galadriel is greater than Elrond in Tolkiens mind."

As I said before it all depends on what Tolkien means by 'Great' in this usage. He could merely mean that Feanor and Galadriel were the most prominent Eldarin rulers or maybe just the most famous.

"And, lastly, Lothlorien and the kingdom of Thranduil were the most important elven regions during the War of the Ring on the 3rd age, according to the UT. Not Imladris."

Actually we have no idea what was happening in Eriador during the great battles. The disappearance of the Rangers and the fact that some of the conflict leaks through to guarded Bree suggests that they, and probably Elrond too, are very busy somewhere.

"Besides, Elrond was NOT reading Sauron´s mind as Galadriel was."

Says who? Just because Elrond doesn't show off by *saying* how much he's doing doesn't mean he was doing nothing.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Okay, Galadriel herself probably is more powerful (for one reason, she is 100% Elf), and Nenya is LESS powerful. And Elrond himself is probably less powerful, and Vilya MORE. therefore, Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond, but Vilya is more powerful than Nenya. Also, you have to remember that Vilya was originally Gil-Galad's, therefore it would be more powerful on him.

[the phantom]

Galadriel herself probably is more powerful (for one reason, she is 100% Elf)

We've already discussed the 100% elf thing. It gives no advantage to Galadriel whatsoever (actually, the mixed blood of Elrond was likely an advantage to him).

And Gil-galad wasn't there when Vilya was forged by Celebrimbor, so it wasn't "originally" his. And how do we know if Gil-galad was as powerful as Elrond (we don't, so we also don't know if Vilya would've been greater on his hand).

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Even so, Vilya is stated in ALMOST all of the ME books as the Best, most powerful ring. My other theory is that, scince each ring has different powers, Sauron wanted Nenya, for it's specific powers, above the rest. But Vilya had more power, but was not the right kind of power to become the "pricipal" ring. I have nothing against Elrond, I like him more than Galadriel, but Vilya is definately more powerful.

[Tar Elenion]

What are each of the "different powers" that the Three Rings have?

[the phantom]

but Vilya is definately more powerful

I'm not arguing that. I completely agree that Vilya was more powerful.

I'm arguing that Elrond without Vilya was more powerful than Galadriel without Nenya.