What's With this Always Going Underground

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Have ya ever noticed how no one in Middle-Earth crosses hills or mountains in the conventional way? At least not Tolkien's main, in-story characters. In The Hobbit Bilbo and the Dwarves go underground and out the other side of some geological formation not less than three times: Goblin-Town, the Thranduil's Caverns, and Mt. Erebor. And again in The Lord of the Rings you have the Mines of Moria, Aragorn's taking the Paths of the Dead, and Tunnel portion of the Pass of Cirith Ungol (Shelob's Liar). Tuor alone does much the same thing himself twice.

Obviously, Tolkien must have been an Earth sign, and with hobbit holes and all the rest he was fascinated with caves and subterranean palaces for Dwarves, Noldor and even the Sindar, but not Men so much, not to mention Orcs and Dark Powers.

What's up with this? Beyond the obvious symbolism, did he just want to beat this device to death? Any insights?

[Niphredil Baggins]

I wouldn't say he beated it to death. I'd say he brought it to life. Underground is magical, it's not a place you usually go.

[Birdland]

In most stories, going underground and re-emerging represents Rebirth.

Besides, going underground is scary! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

So far I've gotten obvious symbolism and a pointless argument. Any better thoughts out there?

I'm not knocking it. But after many years I noticed how unusually it is. Tunnels in mountains are extremely rare as natural formations, and extremely difficult to manufacture.

[Gayalondiel]

Underground caves and stuff alllows the plotline to get a lot more exciting: it opens the way for orcs and 'fouler creatures' that dwell in the bowels of the earth. Also dramatically, its much scarier being lost underground, you might never get out!

[Fenrir]

Maybe there was a limestone pass through the mountains? That might have tunnels.

Aside from all the talk of symbolism and rebirth, one thing to concider is.. it's a lot easier to go straight through than over a mountian. That's why passes exist, because treking over a mountian is hard. I dont find it odd at all that they frequently avoid long passes by going through mountains. any responce?

[Aralaithiel]

Yeah, but what about climbing and conquering?

[Elendur]

I think that caves are far from overused in Tolkiens books. They are a great place for people to dwell in safety (Menegroth), Dwarves love caves, and basically all evil things like to dwell in caves to get away from the nasty sun.

It makes sense that people will encounter a cave now and then, live in one, or simply have no other alternative path than to go through one.

[Sharkû]

It's sexual symbolism, I tell you!!

(That was ironic, btw) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
...

Might as well repair a senseless post.

“In The Hobbit Bilbo and the Dwarves go underground and out the other side of some geological formation not less than three times: Goblin-Town, the Thranduil's Caverns, and Mt. Erebor.”

First of all, they are dwarves, it is that simple when it comes to Erebor. Dwarves, in turn, care little about symbolism, they are made that way by their creator; to love gems, the bones of the earth, etc.
Goblins/orcs are the opposite of all things light and fair, so they go underground where it is eternally dark, and where they can hide and breed -- 'Death to light, to law, to love / Cursed by moon and stars above....'. Again, a simple mythological explanation. The company did not visit Goblin-Town voluntarily.
Thranduil went underground for reasons of safety as well, after the fashion of the Elf Lords of the First Age. One probably useless thought of mine here is that you can see stars much better from the bottom of a dark pit, well, or cave; even in daylight, mayhap.

“The Lord of the Rings you have the Mines of Moria, Aragorn's taking the Paths of the Dead, and Tunnel portion of the Pass of Cirith Ungol (Shelob's Lair)”

Again, a dwarf mansion, and not just any. Again, not the route of choice.
As for the Paths of the Dead, I simply cannot imagine a Grove of the Dead where a Prince of Rohan could lose his life to ghosts. And where the mountains of Middle-Earth cannot be passed, one has to go under them. One might want to consider that these mountains are not solely geologically formed as ours, but the works of the Gods and their Enemy, and their heights and shapes are sometimes of a whole different dimension.

Hobbits use underground, ‘earth-‘ mansions when possible, maybe due to size, maybe genes, probably safety again.

The Earth symbolism seems irrelevant to me. At any rate, it would stand as peer with fire symbolism (Flame Imperishable), air (Manwë, Eagles), and water (the most ‘noble’ element). And if you consider underground travels overly used in the books, so would be air, water, and fire symbolism (and sometimes travels, e.g. the eagles, sea voyages, etc.).

Which leads me to my last point. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings are fundamentally books about journeys. We have dozens of forests. There are many mountains to cross. I do not think the element of going subterranean was overdone in that regard. And in the major part of the Prof’s mythology, this plays a considerably smaller part anyway.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Now relax everyone, I'm not criticizing the precious books. All the underground stuff is really cool, and it ain't forced. That it makes such wonderful sense may be why I never notice it before.

But you have to admit it is a rather recurrent theme. Tolkien did not have to go there. Other ways through and around mountains, or no mountains, were always options. How about a desert, body of water or another forest like Mirkwood. So, I just find it curious that there are so many fabulous and convenient opportunities to pass right through mountains.

It is clearly a very charming thing, but it may have as much to do with facing hidden fears, having faith and the transformative power thereof.

You may notice that these passages through the depths have profound character implications. They ain't who they were when they get to the other side. Putting aside Tuor's journeys, consider the following:

1. Going through Goblin-Town. Bilbo finds Ring hidden in depths (if one knows Tolkien's revisions to the first editions of The Hobbit this was a piece of luck for the author); he lies for the first and only time; he faces and overcomes the threat of Gollum and the goblin guards.

2. Passage through Thranduîl's caverns. Bilbo rises to become the de facto leader of the group.

3. Travel and emergence at front door of Erebor. Extreme avarice and paranoia takes hold of Thorin.

4. Mines of Moria. Gandalf transformed utterly. Aragorn begins to assume the mantle of leadership and of confident determination, which he had lacked. (The film really uses this but it's in the Books as a subtle subtext).

5. Passing of the Grey Company. Aragorn makes claims of kingship, not merely of inheritance, taking further charge of his destiny. When he leaves Rohan he is still more or less a Knight's errand, chieftain of the Dúnedain of North and an implacable foe of the Enemy who has declared his lineage. When he comes to the Morthond Vale is assuming the allegiance of not only the oathbreakers (as both Isílidur's heir but also the effective King), but also the allegiance of Gondorians. Also, Gimli is humbled by fear, Legolas approaches the sea.

6. Passage through Shelob's Liar. Sam rises to his potential.

Just some insights.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Aye, Man-of-the-Wold. You're missing one: the tunnels of Orodruin and the transformation of Frodo, finally possessed by the ring, and then returning back the same way - himself again.

Not to mention the transformation of Gollum - zzzt.

But similar transformations occur at the crossings of rivers, and the indecision of the Fellowship is represented openly by steering a middle course down the Anduin. Also Tolkien ties his distant stories together with, of all things, the weather.

All signs point to Rome, the same conclusion: not a specific obsession with 'the underground' (though I believe Bilbo's love of mountains reflects Tolkien's own) but a concious use of geography to tell his story. Think, first of this genre, he was free to create a geography to fit his story, rather than planting his story on an existing piece of real estate.

But let's not miss the obvious. In both stories secrecy was all important, to which tunnels lend themselves nicely. It would be fairer to ask, what was Tolkien's obsession with the underdog (ahem) taking the bully by stealth and surprise, rather than open set-piece battle. That's the consistant theme, more so than tunnels and caves.

Fun topic, wish I'd noticed it sooner.

-Maril

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Mister Underhill]

MotW, your analysis of the transformative power of the underground journey corresponds to a phase of “the hero’s journey” identified by the late, great Joseph Campbell – what he refers to as “The Belly of the Whale”. This may be simply stating the “obvious” symbolism that you mentioned earlier, but what the hey – I’ve been accused of worse than stating the obvious.

The idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a transit into the sphere of rebirth is symbolized in the worldwide womb image of the belly of the whale. The hero, instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the unknown, and would appear to have died...

This exactly describes the entrance to Moria. Recall, even, that Frodo briefly appears to have died at the tomb of Balin when he’s nearly skewered by a spear. Gandalf does in fact die (physically) and is transformed. To continue:

This popular motif gives emphasis to the lesson that the passage of the threshold is a form of self-annihilation. [...] ...instead of passing outward, beyond the confines of the visible world, the hero goes inward, to be born again.

-“The Hero With a Thousand Faces”

As a side note, I came across this interesting bit about an ogre figure in South African mythology called the Hai-uri (very close to Uruk-hai, inverted, eh?). “This monster is a hunter of men, whom it tears to shreds with cruel teeth as long as fingers. The creature is said to hunt in packs.” Compare with, “We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat.”

[Carannillion]

Tolkien did have his experiences with mountains (see the thread "Was Tolikien a hiker?" in Novs and News) and perhaps this underground traversing of them was his way of making them more mysterious and magnificent, even to himself?

Interesting side-note, Mr. Underhill...

[Sharkû]

“I came across this interesting bit about an ogre figure in South African mythology called the Hai-uri” (- Undergroundo)
Intriguing; seems to me a case similar to Gondar or nasc, on which the Prof commented he found interesting “the nature of the process of 'linguistic invention' (including nomenclature) in general, and in The Lord of the Rings in particular. It would take too long to discuss this – it needs a long essay which I have often in mind but shall probably never write.”
“Nonetheless one's mind is, of course, stored with a 'leaf-mould' of memories (submerged) of names, and these rise up to the surface at times, and may provide with modification the bases of 'invented' names.”
Reminds me of mountains like Ulugh Muz Tagh, Qungur Tagh or Muztagata, which are not in Mordor, but China (no hidden joke intented).


To get back on topic (maybe the side note is worth a thread of its own), the transformative processes in the earth are there to a degree. And if you want a good literary example, I may point to Süskind’s Perfume and Grenouille’s mortification there.

Still, I find such comparisons and applications of other works unto the books unnecessary where the point in question can be explained within the mythology.

If anything has to be questioned, then why dwarves play such a big role in the Hobbit and LR. Their going underground is inborne in their very race, cf. their creation and ‘lying asleep’, for convenience’s sake from 77 QS: “he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.” “They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone” (Iluvatar, ibid.). “Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made”.

“Other ways through and around mountains, or no mountains, were always options.” (- MotW) Well, not really, for any subterranean journey -- Moria was the choice when the Gap and Caradhras no longer were (and the High Pass north of Rivendell was too far away); the Paths of the Dead were a part of the legitimation process of Elessar, and the Dead Men were needed to turn the tide on the Pelennor.

As for the traveller being notably changed on the journey underground, change, or rather development of the characters and growing experience, is apparent in all of the many stages of the journeys. One must not fail to see woods as considerably more ‘transformative’ here, by the way.

Gollum himself explains well the one in fact really obvious meaning of caverns: “‘But as he lowered his eyes, he saw far above the tops of the Misty Mountains, out of which the stream came. And he thought suddenly: “It would be cool and shady under those mountains. The Sun could not watch me there. The roots of those mountains must be roots indeed; there must be great secrets buried there which have not been discovered since the beginning” (Gandalf in Shadow of the Past).

Consequently, the development in Bilbo’s finding the Ring etc. is coincidental.
Thranduil’s caverns hardly proved a place of development for the dwarves, if you put aside growing anger at Elves that would not need a reason anyway.
Thorin’s greed was due to the dragon’s hoard and mainly the Arkenstone, not a power of the mountain.
Gandalf does not transform in the Mines of Moria. Gandalf falls, exhausted, on the very top of the Zirak-Zigil, and I for one could not think of a place less underground. Aragorn needs time to realize his new position outside of Moria. Leading the company to Lórien was not the feat of a great leader yet. So, Lórien is again important.

Apart from these direct points, if underground journeys have to be made in the mythopoeia -- and as I hope to have proven, they are necessary in Hobbit and LR – it is only logical that they hold more potential than a hobbit walking party. And where there is a trial, a development of character is the next consequence. Hence this is not a special quality of the genius loci.

[Aralaithiel]

I think I'll go underground to hide from all the light this thread has exposed! LOL!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would agree that secrecy has a lot to do with the underground theme - compare to the underground railway (secretly smuggling slaves out of the South) or the underground resistance during wars or totalitarian regimes...

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Oh, O.K., Let me try this again.

• I'm just saying that Tolkien had a good little motif or recurring theme with these underground passages.
• There is nothing, be it fantasy, dwarves or mountains that makes this unavoidable to the degree that he uses it as a device.
• Rather it is a decision that the author makes, much of it for probably intuitive, artistic or even unconscious reasons.
• I'm just suggesting we look for good ideas on what those reasons might be, as opposed to critiquing my basic premise. Post elsewhere if unenthused by this topic.
• I posed character development as just one possible explanation or example. I am not saying that these underground passages (go in one side and come out another, unlike Mt. Orodruin) are the only places or ways of character development in the Books.
• In fact, I think Tolkien is not given enough credit for how much beautiful character development he does include in his stories. Much of it is very subtle (being more than 'black & white') or it happens outside the plotline.
• What I am saying is that these underground passages offer rather profound and momentous opportunities for the characters to grow.
• One reason is that in going underground or doing associated things they must overcome fears and face unheard-of challenges, which is symbolized (not necessarily in an obvious way) by going underground itself.
• In the one example of Bilbo get dragged down to Goblin-Town that this is not voluntary, by just by being with the Dwarves, Bilbo is addressing his fears, and he shows great courage and resolve in getting out, Ring or no.
• I'm not saying that this underground stuff is some type of Black Box, out of which appears the light at the end of the tunnel, and voilà new character.
• No, really significant things are seen and experienced down there as part of the story, which only adds to the profundity.
• Not all of the characters go through a deep transformation. Admittedly, the Mines of Moria have a bigger impact on everyone but Frodo.

To return to my examples:

1. I don't see Bilbo's finding the ring as conincidence. The author did it intentional, and then made it quite clear that it be viewed as "Fate," which is only underscored by the underground aspect in that he's a different Bilbo on the other side, not only because of the One Ring, but also because of the encounter with the worst side of Hobbitness in Gollom and the pluck and pity that he learns and shows in that trial.

2. In Thranduîl's Caverns, Bilbo goes and strives for the Dwarves' benefit, and finds tremendous resourcefulness in himself, which allows him to grow in both his and the Dwarves' reckoning. Admittedly they don't change at all.

3. The passage through Erebor is a case of negative character development, not unlike Smeägol's far longer ordeal. Thorin sees in the ruin of Erebor's halls all of the past glory and hurts of his people represented, and it causes deep anger and resentful to brew and well up in his heart, which makes him greedy, wrathful and vengeful in very unfortunate ways.

4. Moria is important for Aragorn's and maybe other's development, but it is really the great challenge for Gandalf. What he'll have to face there is not unknown to his or Aragorn's heart, even if surprisingly to his mind. But that may be an example of Istari having to relearn. That he might have to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Ringbearer, while also ridding Middle-Earth of this great and evil counterpart (what's so important about wings?!) is a great test for him, and from it he is transformed into the type of wizard that he deserved to be all along.

5. The Paths of the Dead is critical for Aragorn's evolution into a true heir to the royal power of Elendil and Isíldur. He draws on Isíldur's legacy and faces demons (in a sense), but as a result openly leads his people of Gondor to victory.

6. Sam's passage (twice) through Shelob's Liar is when we see him really become the Great person that he in fact is. He realizes many things about what he wants, what he values, and what he can do (on his own).

[Sharkû]

One point where we apparently misunderstood each other (or at least where I misunderstood you) is the underground places as a cause of development. This is what I see as highly unlikely. What I naturally agree on is that they are places of such developments, and as such equally worth discussion like swamps, mountains, rivers, forests; a discussion I never shun [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

So, in my eyes, there is the importance of something that certainly is a recurrent motif, but I would argue that there is special symbolism behind that.

That is also why I see no need to rebuke the precise analysis of the respective developments and challenges in the underground sojourns you presented. I also agree that the going underground itself is one part of these, logically. However, this already sums up the importance of the trait of being underground itself to the development. “These underground passages offer rather profound and momentous opportunities for the characters to grow.” Very well said. Individual places may have individual spirits and influences, be they underground or not, I would only stay away from generalizing these; which fortunately was not the case here anyway.

Maybe JRRT liked underground journeys so much he put them in the works just for his own delight; then he was a great enough author to portray them credibly, even if the event as such may seem unlikely.

So, obviously, I am not at all unenthused by the topic, even though I still differ in the point that the use of the device does not have special reasons, if only that it fit into the mythopoeic process.
And with my personal need of using a 'myth-' word in every post of mine being fulfilled, I think we should stop the contra-productive 'horizontal' argumentation. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Originally posted by Sharku:
<STRONG>I think we should stop the contra-productive 'horizontal' argumentation. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]</STRONG>

Huh?.

Otherwise, cool points. But I, at least, get a real sense of significance out of these underground "shortcuts" that so perfectly arise. I'm sure there are many other ways to appreciate them besides my overly analytical examples.

Norweg ist noch mir das eindrucksvolleste Land der Olympiad Winters.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Viellicht Norweg?

[Raefindel]

Maybe there is a really simple explanation that we haven't thought about. Maybe Tolkien himself had some cave-experience in his own life. Like the spiders... He writes of spiders because he was bitten by a tarantula when he was a child. Just a thought. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Scapegoat]

Tolkien did indeed have 'cave-experience'. He spent four months in and out of trenches and underground bunkers during the Battle of the Somme. Why shouldn't he imagine strange peoples and adventures beneath the earth? He had witnessed them.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Raefindel]

Thank You, Scapegoat. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I rest my case.

[Bêthberry]

Persuant to Estelyn's resurrection of this thread on the Ghost Lines thread , I must add here my great surprise at what must rank as a glaring omission of underground places in Tolkien, despite the wisdom expressed here by illustrious members formerly known as regulars.

Why, the very Barrow Downs themselves and the clear threat of dismemberment there to our fellow Fellowshippers.

To that I must add our illustrious leader's experiences spelunking: TheBarrowWight's blog. BW appears to have forsaken the virtual underground of the forum for deep delving real deeps. What meaning would his absence from this thread have?

[deal_with_it]

1. Thorin and Co did climb the Misty Mountain passes east of Rivendell and went in the cave to get out of a storm

2. They climbed Erebor

3. The Fellowship tried unsuccessfully to climb over Caradhras and Redhorn Pass

4. Sam and Frodo climbed over the mountains into Mordor

5. Sam and Frodo climbed up Orodruin

6. Galdalf chased the Balrog to the top of Zirak-Zigil

But we do it today too. We got tunnels going thru mountains on our rail and highway systems.

[Iris Alantiel]

I think Man-of-the-Wold's ideas here are very compelling. Wish I'd found them three months sooner so I could plagiarise it for a term paper.

In seriousness, though, I think you're really onto something there. It rather made me think of the process by which diamonds are made - pieces of coal, left underground and under pressure for long enough, turn into precious gemstones. It's something to think about. You could probably make an argument for the significance of the weight of the earth overtop of them as representative of the weight of the entire Quest, which changes the characters and, in most cases, elevates them. Think about it:
[*]The obvious one - Gandalf, fighting the Balrog in Moria, gets upgraded from Gray to White.[*]As was mentioned before, Sam discovers his heroism after passing through Shelob's lair.[*]Aragorn fully claims his status as king.[*]Merry and Pippin find ways to contribute.[*]Even though Frodo ends up emotionally destroyed, he is elevated in the sense that he is granted permission to go into the West with the elves. [/list]
In all of these cases (and I'm sure there are many others, but I don't have the book in front of me), members of the Fellowship who have passed through some of the various caves in the story become something better than what they were - in essence, they start as coal, and turn into diamonds. (Gandalf, again, provides the best example, starting off gray like coal dust - sort of - and ending up white like diamonds.) It isn't necessarily true that all these characters' changes come directly from experiences within the caves, though; what does anybody make of that?

Also, what about characters who don't go through caves? As far as I can remember, Éowyn never goes through a cave, but she undoubtedly changes and develops throughout the text. (That's actually what I ended up writing my essay on.) What contributes to her change from coal to diamonds, so to speak?

If I come up with anything later, I'll come back. In the meantime, I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Iris Alantiel

I think Man-of-the-Wold's ideas here are very compelling. Wish I'd found them three months sooner so I could plagiarise it for a term paper.

In seriousness, though, I think you're really onto something there. It rather made me think of the process by which diamonds are made - pieces of coal, left underground and under pressure for long enough, turn into precious gemstones. It's something to think about. You could probably make an argument for the significance of the weight of the earth overtop of them as representative of the weight of the entire Quest, which changes the characters and, in most cases, elevates them. Think about it:
[*]The obvious one - Gandalf, fighting the Balrog in Moria, gets upgraded from Gray to White.[*]As was mentioned before, Sam discovers his heroism after passing through Shelob's lair.[*]Aragorn fully claims his status as king.[*]Merry and Pippin find ways to contribute.[*]Even though Frodo ends up emotionally destroyed, he is elevated in the sense that he is granted permission to go into the West with the elves. [/list]
In all of these cases (and I'm sure there are many others, but I don't have the book in front of me), members of the Fellowship who have passed through some of the various caves in the story become something better than what they were - in essence, they start as coal, and turn into diamonds. (Gandalf, again, provides the best example, starting off gray like coal dust - sort of - and ending up white like diamonds.) It isn't necessarily true that all these characters' changes come directly from experiences within the caves, though; what does anybody make of that?

Also, what about characters who don't go through caves? As far as I can remember, Éowyn never goes through a cave, but she undoubtedly changes and develops throughout the text. (That's actually what I ended up writing my essay on.) What contributes to her change from coal to diamonds, so to speak?

If I come up with anything later, I'll come back. In the meantime, I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

True. And Gimli by his very nature loved the underground already. Legolas did admittledly love the Glittering Caves and it appears his friendship with the dwarf became stronger afterwards.