the scouring of the shire

[Bandobras Took]

If the hobbits had their bows ready when grima was shot why did they not just shoot him and saruman when they took over. I mean if they had the bows ready why not shoot him when thy got the chance!

[Sparrow]

I think Frodo probably knew that a regular bow-and-arrow could not kill Saruman.

~Sparrow

[Altariel]

Perhaps the return of Frodo & co. from... wherever it was that they were... motivated the hobbits to take back what was theirs?Frodo & co.'s superior martial skill/knowledge of tactics etc./previous history & experience with the removal-of-wizards-(specifically Saruman)-from-office helped as well. It's quite likely that if the hobbits had tried to overthrow Saruman without the skill & knowledge of Frodo & the gang, they would have failed quite miserably. In addition, they were probably afraid to.

And Sparrow's probably right; it's quite unlikely that a hobbit-bow could fell Saruman, him being a spirit of the Maiar and all. They shot Grima, yes, but Grima was a mortal man.

[Bandobras Took]

yes but if he could be killed by grimas dagger why not a bow?
And also, when his staff was broken he lost his power so he could have been killed by a bow

[Altariel]

Perhaps Grima's pent-up anger and loathing for his abusive master had something to do with it... you never know.

And I think, really, it's not a question of whether or not the hobbits' bows could have killed Saruman; they were probably too terrified of him to act in any case. Also. Saruman had the power of his voice, still, and he probably used that to hold sway over the hobbits...

[Bandobras Took]

You are most likly right. Thank you Altarial.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:17 PM January 19, 2004: Message edited by: Bandobras Took ]

[Bandobras Took]

P.S. anyone know who the firs member was?

[Finwe]

If you're talking about the Barrow-Downs, there is no first member. When you make a website using the software that the Downs uses, apparently one account is automatically made. That is why the Barrow-Wight is is Member No. 2.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Let's get back to topic, please.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

If the question here is actually 'why didn't the Hobbits just shoot Saruman as soon as he turned up?', the answer is really quite simple. He had been buying up most of the Shire (using Lotho Sackville-Baggins as a front) for quite some time: the hobbits therefore didn't realise what was happening until Saruman was already their de facto ruler. Had he turned up with an army of ruffians and just invaded I'm sure that he would have been as roundly defeated as he was in the Scouring.

The hobbits were confused and disorientated, having lost their freedom before they could see that it was being taken. All that Frodo and his companions did was to remind them how things ought to be and what had been taken from them. This was, as we can see, enough to rouse them to action.

As for Saruman's death, I think it's quite clear from the passage in which Gríma kills him that his physical form could be killed by mortal weapons. The only reason this had not happened was because nobody had been able to pluck up the courage to try. His Voice was a potent weapon in that respect, since it could frighten or persuade greater people than hobbits. As for Frodo's reasons: well, he's a deep one. Two wrongs don't make a right; and by the end of the story he was very well aware of this.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:23 PM January 19, 2004: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Firefoot]

I think most of the Hobbits would have been willing to go after Saruman and his ruffians once they found out was happening. I think what they really needed was a leader, someone to say this is what we will do and how we will do it. That was what Merry and Pippin did. They took control of the Hobbits and laid out their plans. They had experience in battle as well, which none of the other hobbits (to my knowledge) had. There were some some Hobbits who tried to stand up to them, and they were dragged off to the Lockholes. This would make most Hobbits to scared to do anything against the rules. None of the Hobbits liked it, but none of them knew what to do about it either. Once Merry and Pippin told them what to do they were only to happy to do it.

I always read the Scouring of the Shire chapter as an allegory, in the same vein as Animal Farm, about the threat of slow-creeping fascism in the wake of world war, and the price of liberty being eternal vigilance. But since Tolkien disavowed any and all real-world parallel interpretations of his work, I guess it's really just a chapter about the hobbits kicking some a--. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

I read this chapter as the culmination of the training of the hobbits, as Gandalf said when he parted from them. It was, in fact, their job to deal with the problems at home. The inhabitants of The Shire certainly had the courage and strength to resist, but they lacked a motivating force. On a smaller scale what the adventurers did upon their return home was what Gandalf had done in Rohan and Gondor. As Gandalf was given the power to kindle hearts so the returning hobbits did. It was not that there were not valiant and strong men in Rohan and Gondor but they needed Gandalf's urging and guidance to strike together and overcome feelings of defeat and hopelessness. The return of Frodo and his friends lit the fire. As to why nobody took care of Saruman beforehand... I doubt greatly that Saruman ever came in range of any hobbits who may have tried to strike a blow. He had his ruffians for that, much as Sauron had his orcs. They were expendable, but once a certain number of the inhabitants were suppressed and their leaders were locked up there wasn't much danger to Saruman and his crew.

I found the fact that Frodo wished to spare Saruman even in the end in hope he would find his cure was one of the most touching moments of the entire trilogy. How sad for Saruman that he refused to let go of his hate and regain his wisdom.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sindar, welcome to the Downs! You've brought up a most interesting comparison - the hobbits, returning home after the War, having a similar task to that of Gandalf during the War of the Ring. Yes, there may be a huge pile of wood, but without the kindling spark, there's no fire. The influence of individuals can be very great if they inspire others.

[Selmo]

The Hobbits didn't shoot at the first opportunity because of their extreme reluctance to harm anyone, or anything, unnecessarilly, even someone as evil as Saruman or as corrupted as Grima Wormtongue.
Killing doesn't come easily to Hobbits.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why the Ring had less effect on Hobbits than on other races.

[Angry Brandybuck]

I always read the Scouring of the Shire chapter as an allegory

One needs to be extremely careful when saying this like this. Tolkien says in his Foreword to my edition that:

I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations

He says that instead he feels that history "true or feigned" has "varied applicabilty" to what the reader thinks or has experienced.

This distaste of allegory is one reason why Tolkien disliked C.S. Lewis so much, along with the fact that he wrote his books so quickly.

[Potatothan]

It is true that Tolkien didn't like allegorie, but it is obvious that some of his experience from the wars came into his book. Like that passage in the black marches when the dead are described. Tolkien didn't want to use allegory, but the experiences he had are not easely denied, even though he didn't put it in on purpose.

~Potatothan

[Iris Alantiel]

Sindar - you just expressed exactly what I thought the Scouring of the Shire was all about. Well said, and welcome to the Downs. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I think this scene shows how much the four hobbits have changed over the course of their quest. It shows their greater wisdom and mercy, particularly that of Frodo. Even Saruman himself says, "You have grown, Halfling . . . yes, you have grown very much." This scene is an illustration of the responsibility and leadership the hobbits are now prepared to handle as a result of their adventures. While, in the beginning, they were led by others, they have now come to a point where they themselves can be leaders of their people, in the same way that Gandalf was a leader. It also sets the stage for the responsibilities that Pippin, Merry, and Sam will take later on in their time in the Shire (such as Sam's becoming mayor, etc.)

it also shows that the hobbits are a force to be reckoned with