how many men would it take to kill an elf

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

how many men (of the third age not of Numenor) we'll say your average Rohirin man would it take to kill an elf do u think. Also:

how many orcs to kill a troll, elves to a Balrog. ect

[Elrian]

A very off beat question [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
Do the Rohirrim plan an attack on the Elves? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[GreyIstar]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

But really it is really hard to quantitate the powers of the beings in Middle Earth.

[The Barrow-Wight]

There are too many variables to properly answer your man vs. elf question, but I would answer that if you faced two properly trained and armored warriors from each race against each other, that there would be a 50/50 chance that either might win. On the other hand, if you faced an elf lord with the light of Aman still gleaming in his eyes against Bill Ferny you'd have a short fight.

[red]

The Books II is for advanced discussions of Middle-earth.

Couldn't resist that reminder. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

-rêd

[The Barrow-Wight]

This topic has had previous 'advanced' discussions and could easily be so discussed again.

Please don't discourage discussions.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Yes but I thought Elves were more clever and strong than men but yes I think that there are two many variables.

[Mhoram]

I would suggest compiling estimates on the numbers of each race for each of the great battles and wars mentioned...from these you should be able to get a rough figure on the value in battle of men vs. elves. Also, I remeber Gandalf, I think it was, saying that the sons of Elrond were worth a thousand orcs or something like that.

[haste]

Most elves could be considered more clever then men. But there are alot of men who have done (arguably) greater things. Like Hurin's last stand before being captured. Or many of Beren's situations he has been in. Elendil fighting a Mair with Gil-Galad that is pretty good for a man. But as for the point of elves being stronger I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that men are stronger then elves. Maybe not in those exact words but I'm pretty sure there is a reference to men being more hardy, robust, and stronger. But elves who have seen the light of Aman would still be formatable adversaries as well. Also if sword play is an issue I think strength has nothing to do with it. Because swordplay is a skill and true strength does matter but skill is still the #1 issue in the fight.

Just a thought.

[Pippin]

you're right, it's all depending on chance and curcumstance.
it could take one man with a skilled bow, or an army. depends on how lucky the man is feeling...but if he fails, he's gonna have one severely ****ed off Elf at his heels...

[shieldmaiden]

How many Orcs does it take to replace a light bulb?
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Orald]

Elves aren't necessarily stronger than Men. Remember Turin, he was a poor craftsman, unlike a lot of elves, because he was so strong. If his immense strength took away from his skill as a craftsman, then it is likely that elves do not have a much greater strenth than men, of course it is also likely that they are just able to control it better. Still, can you imagine an elf being stronger than one of the men that participate in those Stongest Man contests on ESPN and such.

I am not finished. You can't break it down to Elves, humans, orcs, trolls, and the rest of the lot being able to kill so many of each other, it is the same as asking, "how many Canadians does it take to kill an Australian?" And this is because of people like Hurin who killed 100 trolls and maybe some orcs in one day, or Turin, who killed Glaurung and is supposed to be the one who slays Morgoth in the final battle(if it ever happens). Strength and fighting ability are two totally different things, Trolls are obviously extremely strong compared to humans, yet humans can defeat them in battle? And the same goes for every other race.

We should all be happy I didn't post my original message, it made no sense and I am a lesser person because of it. Still, this one isn't the best I could have done either

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Durelen ]

[Turambar]

Durelen -- is it said somewhere that Turin will kill Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorlad?

[Elenhin]

Turambar, it's in the Silm of the 30s (in HoME V). Eonwe, with Turin and Beren, will fight Morgoth and Turin will deal the death-blow.

I had the final threesome as Tulkas, Fionwe, and Turin. As you said, Turin gets in the deathblow.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

There's always the banana peel factor. Who does the world's best swordman fear? The world's worst. He will do the unexpected.

I once won a negotiation because I didn't know what I was doing. By the end of it, my boss-to-be had promised no benefits and low pay. And I somehow got him to agree I would do no work - spend all my time doing homework. True story. Neither of us knew how it happened! He walked around blinking and shaking his head for a week.

[Orald]

Fionwë is an earlier form of Eonwë where Fionwë is actually Manwë's son. I don't know if the change to Eonwë meant that being the son of Manwë was dropped but that doesn't really matter right now. I have HoME V and that is where I got my information, but I believe it is also in a few other books. Which version has it as Tulkas being there, Earnur?

[Lindolirian]

First of all, it takes 483 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. I should know i tried. and noo i don't have way too much time, i did it on a road trip. Any ways i think it depend on wht kind of man and wht kind of elf. It also depends on each of their ages. if they were all average in every way, i'd say about 100 men to kill and elf because I think it was Hurin or one of those guys who killed 70 trools and countless orcs ere he was captured and considering he wasn't your average elf and the trolls are harder to kill then men i think one hundred sounds about right.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

So your basic conclusion is that Elves are a lot better than men. I'd just like to also say that in a lot of your posts you have used heroes to estimate statistics which is a bit stupid (not that any of u are stupid whatsoever), however the Silm and all of Tolkiens books talk about heroes so I can hardly complain. Thanks anyway.

[Orald]

Well there isn't very much on the average Middle Earth Joe so we have to make do with what we have. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

However, if we use the greatest of each race it is at least consistent. It is always fun to speculate.

[Eol]

How many to kill an elf? Well lets have elf be A and man be B. A has the benefit of being older and more experiance than B, but B has many other friends known as , C,D and E. They tag team A. A screams and random factor comes in and launches a catapult and wounds B,C,D and E dies. A is thougtht to being victorious. A steps on a rusty nail and dies from tetnus. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Orald]

AHA! Your equation is faulty, because if you remember correctly you will realize that Elves do not die from disease!

[Carannillion]

Um... Thios was a discussion which seems to have become something of a circus...

Anyway, seriously, aren't elves supposed to be more agile, and faster than any other race? And consider this: If a man (or elf) had been reduced to the height of a dwarf and fought a dwarf, who would then have won? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Eol]

If a human was reduced to a size of a dwarf he would have a better center of gravity then a tall elf. (Yes an elf is suppose to be more agile and speedy, but that is the stereotype...not everyone is like that. Tolkien never flat out states that elves are the masters of stealth; this is a sterotype from Dungeons and Dragons. Elves can be slothful, clumsy and weak. Itall depends on your social status and your training. If you are royality, you will not be as fit as someone who is trained as a soldier. Just some food for thought.)

The dwarf can pull a sumo move and knock the feet from underneath the elf, run underneath the elf or swing what counts on the elf.

Just because one is short does not mean they are ever less weakers...I should know this. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[zifnab]

It seems to me that a good sword/axe blow would do considerable damage to must men and elves. They both fear things, and then both die by fighting, say in battles with orcs. If most men and elves were able to kill hundreds of orcs/trolls in a single seating, then their armies would consist of 50 to a 100 people, than the thousands the use. Some men and elves are superior to each other, but a deathblow is a deathblow.

[Tirinor]

Eol,
would you say that most of the Elves that were distorted into orcs were of the weaker persuasion? Is there some mention to what levels of breeding the orcs came from? I had forgotten that orcs were once elves until I saw the movie, now I am very curious about their transition. From the battle results it seems that orcs are not that great of fighters compared to the noble elves, leading me to believe that the orcs were from a common background, unless their distortion distorted their ability also.

[Carannillion]

Okay, first of all, of course small people can be more skilled and better in fighting, I was actually trying to point out that IMO, dwarves are VERY skilled warriors, and if they stand on equal terms with the 'tall races', then what if we were to shrink for example a man (a haradrim, perhaps... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
I'm not that tall either.

a deathblow is a deathblow

good point, zifnab.

The way I have understood the corruption of elves into orcs (correct me if I'm wrong) is that these were captured elves. No elf wandered voluntarily into Angband, saying "Hey, I'm here for a makeover!"

And Eol, of course there are different elves and different men and so on, but in a discussion like this, you - while having your point in the back of your head at all times - have to use stereotypes or generalizations.

[Eol]

My views are quite different in the scnene that I like to go in a more historical persective and leaving out most of the "mystism" that is usually thrown in for fun. First of all, it is in the mind of the thinker of what type of elf was "warped" into an orc. The movie's interperation of an orc is completely opposite of what I thought an orc was. What is an orc and what type of elf it was could be a new book all in itself.
on the idea of weaker or stronger elves...I really have no arguement. My belief an elf is an elf. If they are weak in one skill, one would usually stronger in another.

Its like trying to compare Faenor to Arwen( book verison) which will be my examples. Each have obvious strengths and weakness. However they are equal because they are adapted to their own situation. I will assume since Arwen is an upright lady as described in FOTR, so to survive in a such a political environement, she would be well read and intelligent. Would know how to speak well and have leadership and people skills that would different because of their situations.
Feanor was raised in life where he was in control and would often lose his temper. He did not have to do as much behind the scenes manupluation as Arwen might possibly use her father or other males in powers.

[Carannillion]

Was Arwen really that political?

[Eol]

There is really no book specifics to verify this. I am writing a novel of similar genre and a character who would not mind spending a few hours chatting with her. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I just analysis the few facts that is given and look at her family structure...(reading the Silmarillion does help in this) and that was my logical conclusion. Daughter to a high noble, I could even go as far as royal, one has duties and obligations. Believe it or not, no matter how angelic the noldor or another elf may seem,there are ugly family politics and manuevers that go on. Read Of Feanor and Meaglin and the story of Tuor, the later half with Maeglin. That is is getting a little off subject.
I do not have direct access to this informtion being at work now...but if you want specifics I can give that to you. Most of this is my own ponderings and research from the written books.

[Halbarad]

Y impression on reading the Silm was that the only good thing about being a man was that you could die and leave Ea. Legolas had a pretty large bow and could string it and nock an arrow faster than the eye could see. That takes both dexterity and strength. Glorfindel killed Gothmog(? or a Balrog at least)although admittedly he was an elf Lord. My personal opinion is that Legolas could have thrown Boromir around if he could have got close enough... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Lush]

In my humble (*snicker*) opinion, Legolas could have thrown anyone around, had he been given the chance. Except for maybe that nasty Balrog. I'd have to protect him from it...now here's a thought.
Please Red, don't shoot me because I am not discussing this in an "advanced" manner. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I probably have no place here, but I couldn't help but thing of something relevant to the topic:

What about when Turin beat down Saeros? sure, Turin was abnormally strong, and Saeros was a useless Nandor, but he was still a lord of Menegroth and had had much more practice in the martial arts. What's more, he had see the faces of those who had seen the faces who had seen the Light. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]