Movie eucatastrophe: tears of joy - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 07-23-2002, 02:18 PM

Hi, I posted this in Books but I thought the Movie crowd might want to discuss it too. Here's the question:From letter 89 by Tolkien: "... I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy stories to produce). And I was there led to the view that it produces its peculiar effect because it is a sudden glimpse of truth... ...joy which produces tears because it is qualitatively so like sorrow, because it comes from those places where Joy and Sorrow are at one, reconciled, as selfishness and altruism are lost in Love..."The question is, where do you see those things happening in Tolkien's work (and in this case, the movie? Where do you see Joy and Sorrow at one; where do you see Altriuism and Selfishness lost in love; and where do you experience tears of joy because of a sudden perception of truth?

Naaramare · 07-23-2002, 03:29 PM

In both book and movie, Sam's decision to follow Frodo. I found it even more moving in the film because of the music chosen for it, and for the fact that instead of a panicked scrabbling into the water, Sam is deliberately wading out over his head.

Gayalondiel · 07-24-2002, 06:38 AM

I found, in both book and Film, Gandalf's fall into shadow was a real moment of joy and sorrow for me. Even more so in hindsight (I guess I never got first sight with the film). The joy came from "He's saving them all. Its the ultimate sacrifice,(even though) I know he'll come back." The sorrow was from "Oh my god, Gandalf's dead". This was compounded with Sir Ian McKellon's wonderful acting, which I found immensley moving in that scene. Another similar moment that got me from the film only was Boromir's death. I didn't like Boromir very much in the book, so I wasn't too sorry to see him go. But the film gave more goodness to him: he also makes the ultimate sacrifice (joy and sorrow). He fails (sorrow) but in accepting Aragorn as king he succeeds (joy). Its not that simple, but i couldn't put into words quite what I'm trying to say.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-25-2002, 12:51 PM

There wasn't any particular part that struck me, but from the beginning, I was so overcome with the power and color and life lent to the story-pictures of Middle Earth that there were tears of amazement running down my face. I particularly enjoyed the battle in Moria. As you might guess, I don't get to the movies very often.

Ithaeliel · 07-25-2002, 01:36 PM

I was moved when Frodo had the flashback of Gandalf's wise words to him in Moria. I was moved by that entire scene with him and Sam. Another scene like that was when the Fellowship meets Galadriel. She told them that they were *this close* to failing, but there was still hope while they remained true to each other.

07-23-2002, 02:18 PM	#1
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Movie eucatastrophe: tears of joy Hi, I posted this in Books but I thought the Movie crowd might want to discuss it too. Here's the question:<P>From letter 89 by Tolkien: <BR>"... I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy stories to produce). And I was there led to the view that it produces its peculiar effect because it is a sudden glimpse of truth... ...joy which produces tears because it is qualitatively so like sorrow, because it comes from those places where Joy and Sorrow are at one, reconciled, as selfishness and altruism are lost in Love..."<P>The question is, where do you see those things happening in Tolkien's work (and in this case, the movie? Where do you see Joy and Sorrow at one; where do you see Altriuism and Selfishness lost in love; and where do you experience tears of joy because of a sudden perception of truth? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

07-23-2002, 03:29 PM	#2
Naaramare Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Fort St John Posts: 196	In both book and movie, Sam's decision to follow Frodo. I found it even more moving in the film because of the music chosen for it, and for the fact that instead of a panicked scrabbling into the water, Sam is deliberately wading out over his head. __________________ "I once spent two weeks in a tree trying to talk to a bird." --Puck, Brother Mine si man i yulma nin equantuva? [my blog]

07-24-2002, 06:38 AM	#3
Gayalondiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: My own little wierd, wierd world Posts: 133	I found, in both book and Film, Gandalf's fall into shadow was a real moment of joy and sorrow for me. Even more so in hindsight (I guess I never got first sight with the film). The joy came from "He's saving them all. Its the ultimate sacrifice,(even though) I know he'll come back." The sorrow was from "Oh my god, Gandalf's dead". This was compounded with Sir Ian McKellon's wonderful acting, which I found immensley moving in that scene.<BR>Another similar moment that got me from the film only was Boromir's death. I didn't like Boromir very much in the book, so I wasn't too sorry to see him go. But the film gave more goodness to him: he also makes the ultimate sacrifice (joy and sorrow). He fails (sorrow) but in accepting Aragorn as king he succeeds (joy). Its not that simple, but i couldn't put into words quite what I'm trying to say. __________________ Not another ****ing Elf! ~C.S.Lewis

07-25-2002, 12:51 PM	#4
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	There wasn't any particular part that struck me, but from the beginning, I was so overcome with the power and color and life lent to the story-pictures of Middle Earth that there were tears of amazement running down my face. I particularly enjoyed the battle in Moria. <P>As you might guess, I don't get to the movies very often. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-25-2002, 01:36 PM	#5
Ithaeliel Cornus Caliga Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here Posts: 710	I was moved when Frodo had the flashback of Gandalf's wise words to him in Moria. I was moved by that entire scene with him and Sam. Another scene like that was when the Fellowship meets Galadriel. She told them that they were this close to failing, but there was still hope while they remained true to each other. __________________ That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. .................William Wordsworth