The Disappearing Elf Returns - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eruwen · 01-18-2003, 03:29 PM

Arwen was not at Helm's Deep. She was on her way to the Grey Havens--to leave Middle Earth forever. Or was she? I have stumbled upon a few pics from Helm's Deep that the people at TheOneRing.net seem to think was Arwen. What do you think of them? A clear shot of Arwen in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. Did WETA miss this bit? {Hint: Look for purple clothes on the white horse.} Arwen's head bobs up momentarily in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. {Again, look for the purple. I think the 3rd figure over.} A flash of Arwen's distinctive sword in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. {Could it be?}So, the question still lies. Was Arwen truly at Helm's Deep? Did she somehow sneak her way into the battle? Is this good enough evidence for the doubters to believe? Post your thoughts...[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Eruwen ]

HCIsland · 01-18-2003, 03:46 PM

First: Thank God they decided not to have Arwen at Helm's Deep.Second: It's discouraging that they couldn't have cleaned up the film better then this.H.C.

Manwe Sulimo · 01-18-2003, 03:46 PM

Nope. Wasn't at Helm's Deep. Unless they're gonna pull an Éowyn for her and have her be disguised...yadee yadee yah.I'll never believe it.

HCIsland · 01-18-2003, 04:05 PM

Just to make sure. Can we be positive these images are actually from the finished film and not some of the post production images that were floating around?H.C.

Peri · 01-18-2003, 04:05 PM

I don't know why they do things like that. Let's just say Arwen was Definitely NOT at Helms Deep and leave it at that.

Tar-Palantir · 01-18-2003, 04:51 PM

That's just kooky. ??? .Even if that "idea" had worked it's way into the writer's heads (which I'm trying real hard to believe it didn't, don't do this Peter!) they did not try hard enough to remove it, these pictures are proof enough of that. Where did these pics come from, exactly?-the horse & clothing in the 1st photo are VERY convincing. As in the "un-helmed" head of dark hair. -why wouldn't she be clad in some form of armoring? Maybe this isn't from Helm's deep, but from (dare I say it???), RotK??<-----hates unanswerable questions... [ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

Fingo · 01-18-2003, 06:29 PM

Maybe they just let Jane Abbott (Liv Tyler's riding double) canter around the battle sequence in her costume to see if anybody would catch it. Thank God she wasn't there. I couldn't handle another scene of her and Aragorn making out. Especially in the middle of the battle!

Gorwingel · 01-18-2003, 06:32 PM

I have seen the film 3 times, and do not recall even seeing anything close to this, I would just like to think that Arwen was never there, she did not mean to be there and she is not supposed to be there.

Brinniel · 01-18-2003, 06:55 PM

I think those pics are from ROTK. Helm's Deep did not take place during the day and those pics don't look dark enough to be night time. Perhaps PJ decided to have Arwen fight in the third film.

Maikadilwen · 01-18-2003, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps PJ decided to have Arwen fight in the third film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't that just as bad?

Eruwen · 01-18-2003, 07:08 PM

ok, to reply to some comments on here. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Can we be positive these images are actually from the finished film and not some of the post production images that were floating around?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, we can. I got them from a site that took the pictures themself from the movie. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where did these pics come from, exactly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>theonering.net They had an article about it on there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Helm's Deep did not take place during the day and those pics don't look dark enough to be night time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, part of Helm's Deep was during the day. Like when the Riders of Rohan come in the battle. Anyway, the question of will it be in ROTK is out because these pics were taken by a person from TTT. I'm not sure about any other questions though than what I have posted. But yeah, that first pic does look alot like Arwen.

doug*platypus · 01-18-2003, 08:56 PM

Did you happen to notice the bulky rider in the red armour with the horse-hair plume that is looming right in the middle of two of your pictures? That guy's name is Éomer, son of Éomund. For some godawful reason he was not at the Battle of Helm's Deep. I think this is even more convincing than the daylight battle evidence. Great pictures, though, and I think they'd make an excellent post in <A HREF="http://null" TARGET=_blank>null</A><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001487" TARGET=_blank>Looking Ahead to ROTK</A>. It's probably the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Arwen is going to turn up to give Aragorn the reforged Narsil/Andúril *shudder*.

Elven-Maiden · 01-18-2003, 09:07 PM

That totally fits in with my theory of Arwen making the audience think she's leaving, but really is there the whole time!cool!

Diamond18 · 01-18-2003, 09:21 PM

She's not there. If she was there, there would be no mistake. I believe that originally they intended her to be there, but changed their minds, and rightfully so. So, I think everyone should just leave the revisions be and accept the fact that she's not supposed to be there in the end version. As a writer who constantly makes revisions, I know that I'd be annoyed if people dug up my old ideas and said that they were how the story really happened. if they did, c'est la guerre.As to Arwen battling in RotK, consider this from theoneright.net: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> FALSE Arwen Fights at Minas Tirith FILMS: Arwen participates in the battle at Minas Tirith. BOOKS: She does not arrive in Gondor until her marriage to Aragorn, after Sauron is defeated. SUPPORTED BY: TORN Spy Report 6/26/00 (first report) REFUTED BY: According to Ian McKellen, Arwen does NOT participate in the battle of Minas Tirith. Unfortunately, I forgot where I read that quote. Bill Weldon Interview 7/27/01 (confirmation) CREDIBILITY: -3/5 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>However, she does make an appearance, so it would seem: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Third Film Opens With Narsil Being Reforged FILMS: The third film starts with the reforging of Narsil in the foundry of Rivendell. Arwen then brings it to Aragorn's encampment, before he heads off for Gondor. BOOKS: Narsil is reforged into Aragorn's sword Anduril before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell in the first book. The third books opens with Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith. PRO: Anduril is a good visual device representing Aragorn's decision to reclaim the throne of Gondor, and thus its reforging is better suited to the third film. CON: This change does not represent Tolkien's work. SUPPORTED BY: Ringbearer Footage Preview 5/4/01 (first report) AICN Peter Jackson interview 2/19/02 (confirmation) Jersey Tolkien Online Messageboard Post 8/12/02 (details) CREDIBILITY: 5/5 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HCIsland · 01-18-2003, 09:26 PM

I'm still not convinced that these images are actually from TTT. I went to the site, but sites make errors as to sources of pics as well as often these pics are obtained third hand. I guess I've got to see it in the film myself. I'm pretty skeptical that way, sorry.As for Arwen all of a sudden being at Helm's Deep. It's not going to happen because they never established her going there in TTT. It's not like they are going to turn around and she's going to say surprise.Now, I think it is entirely possible she'll show up in place of the Dunedain towards the begining of RoTK. I even think it's possible we will see her fighting along side Eomer and company. In fact I think it's not too improbable at all. Having said that, I refuse to judge RoTK until I've seen it myself. Just changing from the book is not enough to clasify it as a mistake.H.C.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-18-2003, 10:09 PM

That is most definately not Helm's Deep.I think Elven-Maiden's theory is spot on. When we see Arwen leaving Rivendell in TTT, we are made to think (from the dialogue with Elrond) that she is leaving for the Grey Havens. In RotK, I strongly suspect that she will turn up in Rohan with Narsil and Aragorn's banner.Arwen's role has been expanded from about one paragraph in the book (and of course an Appendix) to a main role in the film. This is entirely understandable give the dearth of "active" female characters in the book (Eowyn and ... er ... um). Having made her such a central character in the first two films, it is almost inconceivable that she will not play a major role in the third.Alas, though, for the poor Dunedain.

Garen LiLorian · 01-19-2003, 02:57 AM

After all the publicity Arwen's been getting? If she was at Helm's Deep, believe me. We'd know it. She'd do something heroic, and totally out of character for book-Arwen, and generally take up a lot of screen time better spent following anything else.Which isn't to say I dislike movieArwen. But if she were at Helm's Deep, we wouldn't be trying to decide if blurry images were, in fact, her. She' be shoved down our throats because, hey! She's a chick, and this movie needs gender equality. Or something like that.

Melephelwen · 01-19-2003, 07:31 AM

I'm almost positive it's not at Helm's Deep. It's surely Arwen, but the scenes looks like nothing I've seen. I can't think of just one scene that looks like those pictures! *sigh* Guess I'll have to see TTT again

01-18-2003, 03:29 PM	#1
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	The Disappearing Elf Returns Arwen was not at Helm's Deep. She was on her way to the Grey Havens--to leave Middle Earth forever. Or was she? I have stumbled upon a few pics from Helm's Deep that the people at TheOneRing.net seem to think was Arwen. What do you think of them?<P> A clear shot of Arwen in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. Did WETA miss this bit? {Hint: Look for purple clothes on the white horse.}<P> Arwen's head bobs up momentarily in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. {Again, look for the purple. I think the 3rd figure over.}<P> A flash of Arwen's distinctive sword in the final desperate charge at Helm's Deep. {Could it be?}<P>So, the question still lies. Was Arwen truly at Helm's Deep? Did she somehow sneak her way into the battle? Is this good enough evidence for the doubters to believe? Post your thoughts...<p>[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Eruwen ]

01-18-2003, 03:46 PM	#2
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	First: Thank God they decided not to have Arwen at Helm's Deep.<P>Second: It's discouraging that they couldn't have cleaned up the film better then this.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-18-2003, 03:46 PM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Nope. Wasn't at Helm's Deep. Unless they're gonna pull an Éowyn for her and have her be disguised...yadee yadee yah.<P>I'll never believe it. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-18-2003, 04:05 PM	#4
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Just to make sure. Can we be positive these images are actually from the finished film and not some of the post production images that were floating around?<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-18-2003, 04:05 PM	#5
Peri Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 124	I don't know why they do things like that. Let's just say Arwen was Definitely NOT at Helms Deep and leave it at that. __________________ "Ah, but I'll begowk ye there!" cried the gentleman. "Play me false, and I'll play you cunning."

01-18-2003, 04:51 PM	#6
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	That's just kooky. ??? .Even if that "idea" had worked it's way into the writer's heads (which I'm trying real hard to believe it didn't, don't do this Peter!) they did not try hard enough to remove it, these pictures are proof enough of that. <P>Where did these pics come from, exactly?<P>-the horse & clothing in the 1st photo are VERY convincing. As in the "un-helmed" head of dark hair.<BR>-why wouldn't she be clad in some form of armoring? Maybe this isn't from Helm's deep, but from (dare I say it???), RotK??<P><-----hates unanswerable questions... <p>[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ] __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

01-18-2003, 06:29 PM	#7
Fingo Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Over the river and through the woods (literally) Posts: 59	Maybe they just let Jane Abbott (Liv Tyler's riding double) canter around the battle sequence in her costume to see if anybody would catch it. <BR>Thank God she wasn't there. I couldn't handle another scene of her and Aragorn making out. Especially in the middle of the battle! __________________ "We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers- thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."

01-18-2003, 06:32 PM	#8
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I have seen the film 3 times, and do not recall even seeing anything close to this, I would just like to think that Arwen was never there, she did not mean to be there and she is not supposed to be there. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-18-2003, 06:55 PM	#9
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,983	I think those pics are from ROTK. Helm's Deep did not take place during the day and those pics don't look dark enough to be night time. Perhaps PJ decided to have Arwen fight in the third film. __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

01-18-2003, 06:59 PM	#10
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 521	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps PJ decided to have Arwen fight in the third film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't that just as bad? __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

01-18-2003, 07:08 PM	#11
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	ok, to reply to some comments on here. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Can we be positive these images are actually from the finished film and not some of the post production images that were floating around?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, we can. I got them from a site that took the pictures themself from the movie.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where did these pics come from, exactly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>theonering.net <BR>They had an article about it on there. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Helm's Deep did not take place during the day and those pics don't look dark enough to be night time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, part of Helm's Deep was during the day. Like when the Riders of Rohan come in the battle. <P>Anyway, the question of will it be in ROTK is out because these pics were taken by a person from TTT. I'm not sure about any other questions though than what I have posted. But yeah, that first pic does look alot like Arwen.

01-18-2003, 08:56 PM	#12
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Did you happen to notice the bulky rider in the <B>red armour</B> with the <B>horse-hair plume</B> that is looming right in the middle of two of your pictures? That guy's name is Éomer, son of Éomund. For some godawful reason he was <I>not</I> at the Battle of Helm's Deep. I think this is <B>even more</B> convincing than the daylight battle evidence. <P>Great pictures, though, and I think they'd make an excellent post in <A HREF="http://null" TARGET=_blank>null</A><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001487" TARGET=_blank>Looking Ahead to ROTK</A>. It's probably the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Arwen is going to turn up to give Aragorn the reforged Narsil/Andúril shudder. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-18-2003, 09:07 PM	#13
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	That totally fits in with my theory of Arwen making the audience think she's leaving, but really is there the whole time!<P>cool! __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

01-18-2003, 09:21 PM	#14
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	She's not there. If she was there, there would be no mistake. I believe that originally they intended her to be there, but changed their minds, and rightfully so. So, I think everyone should just leave the revisions be and accept the fact that she's not supposed to be there in the end version. As a writer who constantly makes revisions, I know that I'd be annoyed if people dug up my old ideas and said that they were how the story really happened. if they did, c'est la guerre.<P>As to Arwen battling in RotK, consider this from theoneright.net:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> FALSE Arwen Fights at Minas Tirith <BR>FILMS: Arwen participates in the battle at Minas Tirith.<BR>BOOKS: She does not arrive in Gondor until her marriage to Aragorn, after Sauron is defeated.<BR>SUPPORTED BY: <BR>TORN Spy Report 6/26/00 (first report) <BR>REFUTED BY: <BR>According to Ian McKellen, Arwen does NOT participate in the battle of Minas Tirith. Unfortunately, I forgot where I read that quote. <BR>Bill Weldon Interview 7/27/01 (confirmation) <BR>CREDIBILITY: -3/5 <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>However, she does make an appearance, so it would seem:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Third Film Opens With Narsil Being Reforged<BR>FILMS: The third film starts with the reforging of Narsil in the foundry of Rivendell. Arwen then brings it to Aragorn's encampment, before he heads off for Gondor.<BR>BOOKS: Narsil is reforged into Aragorn's sword Anduril before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell in the first book. The third books opens with Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith.<BR>PRO: Anduril is a good visual device representing Aragorn's decision to reclaim the throne of Gondor, and thus its reforging is better suited to the third film.<BR>CON: This change does not represent Tolkien's work.<BR>SUPPORTED BY: <BR>Ringbearer Footage Preview 5/4/01 (first report) <BR>AICN Peter Jackson interview 2/19/02 (confirmation) <BR>Jersey Tolkien Online Messageboard Post 8/12/02 (details) <BR>CREDIBILITY: 5/5<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-18-2003, 09:26 PM	#15
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I'm still not convinced that these images are actually from TTT. I went to the site, but sites make errors as to sources of pics as well as often these pics are obtained third hand. I guess I've got to see it in the film myself. I'm pretty skeptical that way, sorry.<P>As for Arwen all of a sudden being at Helm's Deep. It's not going to happen because they never established her going there in TTT. It's not like they are going to turn around and she's going to say surprise.<P>Now, I think it is entirely possible she'll show up in place of the Dunedain towards the begining of RoTK. I even think it's possible we will see her fighting along side Eomer and company. In fact I think it's not too improbable at all. Having said that, I refuse to judge RoTK until I've seen it myself. Just changing from the book is not enough to clasify it as a mistake.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-18-2003, 10:09 PM	#16
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	That is most definately not Helm's Deep.<P>I think Elven-Maiden's theory is spot on. When we see Arwen leaving Rivendell in TTT, we are made to think (from the dialogue with Elrond) that she is leaving for the Grey Havens. In RotK, I strongly suspect that she will turn up in Rohan with Narsil and Aragorn's banner.<P>Arwen's role has been expanded from about one paragraph in the book (and of course an Appendix) to a main role in the film. This is entirely understandable give the dearth of "active" female characters in the book (Eowyn and ... er ... um). Having made her such a central character in the first two films, it is almost inconceivable that she will not play a major role in the third.<P>Alas, though, for the poor Dunedain. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-19-2003, 02:57 AM	#17
Garen LiLorian Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The frigid white wilderness of the Midwest Posts: 235	After all the publicity Arwen's been getting? If she was at Helm's Deep, believe me. We'd know it. She'd do something heroic, and totally out of character for book-Arwen, and generally take up a lot of screen time better spent following <I>anything</I> else.<P>Which isn't to say I dislike movieArwen. But if she were at Helm's Deep, we wouldn't be trying to decide if blurry images were, in fact, her. She' be shoved down our throats because, hey! She's a chick, and this movie needs gender equality. Or something like that. __________________ This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha

01-19-2003, 07:31 AM	#18
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	I'm almost positive it's not at Helm's Deep. It's surely Arwen, but the scenes looks like nothing I've seen. I can't think of just one scene that looks like those pictures! sigh Guess I'll have to see TTT again __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon