Balrogs DO have wings!!!

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okay im not really sure about all other Balrogs but i know that Durin's Bane had wings! in Fellowship Of The Ring it says so....

&quot;The Balrob made no answer. The Fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itselfup to a great height, and ITS WINGS WERE spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen....&quot;

let me me know what you guys think

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

I think you're wicked! wicked! wicked! to start this one again <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Eldar14]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Considering the fact that the quote you just posted is VERY commonly used by pro-wings people, my returning argument only involves me thinking back to what others and myself have said before.

Tolkien was an author, and he, like all authors, uses certain aspects of literature to make his stories more interesting. One of the most common is something I like to call a metaphor. For example, if this quote gave Balrogs wings, then I could give you many quotes that would light peoples eyes on fire. And just to let you know, the reason RKittle responded how he did, the issue of Balrogs having wings has been a very hot topic on the downs.

Also, since your new, I'll describe some of the forum's features to you. When your typing your post, their are a few links on the left side. The one labeled http://www.ezboard.com/help/help_howto_useezcodes.htmluse ezcodes</a> shows you all of the neato features you can do on ezboard. For example, that link was one. Also, smileys that you type here appear as a graphic smiley like this one: <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> (I just typed a : and a ) ) Welcome to the downs!! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

I've seen this discussed in many other places and I don't understand why people insist on contradicting what Tolkien has said. Tolkien stated that Balrogs have wings in the quote given by jstate, I see no reason why we should not believe what Tolkien has written.

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[Fingolfin]

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RE

Actually no. That quote in and of itself proves nothing. It is in all likelyhood a metaphor in line with standard literary practice as a support for the afor mentioned simile. If infact it is not a simile that would mean tolkien introduced a contradiction meaning that both things mentioned cannot exist, in that case you would have to take your pick and so no one could say, that case simply introduces confusion and is not inline with the previous stated facts by tolkien.


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[Mister Underhill]

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re: Shadows and Wings

Actually, I disagree with Fingolfin (and all others who adhere to the metaphorical shadow-wing concept). Rather than cut and paste or get into a needless rehash, I'll just point interested parties to http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...&t=000383op=80an in-depth debate</a> on this issue which begins roughly with Fingolfin's 6/15/01 post near the bottom of the page.

Anyone brave enough to slog through 114 posts of Balrog fury can start at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=1&t=000383the beginning of the thread</a> for more wings/no-wings arguments than you can shake a staff at.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 7/8/01 10:31:33 pm

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: re: Shadows and Wings

Tolkien did use alot of metaphors, but I dont think he was using one when he said &quot;his wings spread&quot;.. it wouldn't make sense. I beleive that they actually had wings but could not fly. Some people say that is a stupid idea, because why would they have wings for no reason? I can just guess that they used them to bring themselves into the air for a short time.. like a bird that is too heavy to fly but can still use its wings to go into the air for a while.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Beregond]

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Re: re: Shadows and Wings

Or like a penguin! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

There is no reason why the Balrog coudn't fly. The one in Moria didn't fly because &quot;its wings were spread from wall to wall&quot; and it didn't have room to fly.

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[Fingolfin]

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RE:

Hey those &quot;wings&quot; could bre and infact probably are metaphorical. The Simile used previously in the same context and word if not proves then casts real doubt on the idea that those are actual physical appenages. There really is no room to be so dogmatic on this issue on both sides.

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: RE:

Tolkien set sail for the grey havens in 73, I think... did no one ever ask him? Has anyone ever asked Christopher Tolkien... ?This debate can never be answered fully, by siting excepts from the books or conjecture no mater how positive one may feel...

Only Tolkien has this answer... unless he revealed the answer to another.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000174>Ring Lord Rules</A> at: 7/11/01 3:29:59 pm

[Elenhin]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

First of all, apologies for rekindling(?) a flame-prone thread.

Ring Lord Rules, I believe that we can try to find out the truths by studying the texts enough. I have noted, though, that different people see different things in them, but that doesn't mean that Tolkien intentionally left it vague. After all, at least to the 50s he had a clear vision of Balrogs: they were wingless. LotR and the following changes to the world may have altered the nature of Balrogs or they may have not; but the truth must be out there.

&quot;...and its wings were spread from wall to wall...&quot;

Pro-wingers insist on literal reading of these words while no-wingers insist on metaphorical reading. Both have lots of arguments to back them up, but I believe that I have one which has not yet appeared in the recent Balrog-threads of this forum.

How large were the wings? The bridge is about 16 meters tall, and it crosses a chasm. That means that the hall must be very wide (so that it's a &quot;chasm&quot; and not a hole or something); I'd give an estimate of 30 meters.

&quot;...spread from wall to wall...&quot;

Even if the wings didn't actually touch the walls, they'd both be about 12 meters wide. So large wings need to be at least 2 meters tall and 10cm thick to support themselves and a flying creature. These measures give one wing the volume of 2.4m^3, and two wings 4.8m^3. That is with almost 100% chance larger than the Balrog itself (unless you believe it's some 40 feet tall movie abomination-of-Tolkien). So: how could it hide these monstrously big wings from the eyes of the fellowship (while they say the man-shaped creature!), or force them through the smaller door of the Chamber of Mazarbul?


--
Elenhin

&quot;My god, it's full of stars!&quot;

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[Fingolfin]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

I have never heard that arguemtn before. Nice Job

BTW: I like your sig

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[Mister Underhill]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

Where's Mithadan? Have I become the designated pro-wing advocate?

Elenhin: an interesting and unique angle on a much dissected topic. However, in my view, it's at least as speculative (and probably more so) than other wing/no-wing arguments. Let's see if I can take things point by point without getting carried away with another whopper of a post.

Apologies
None needed on my part! This is the sort of thing that makes the board fun.

Early (wingless?) Balrogs vs. the LotR-era Balrog(s)
In my opinion there’s very little to be gained by comparing early Book of Lost Tales Balrogs to the LotR Balrog. Take a stroll over to the New Silmarillion forum and look at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000087A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin</a> (if you dare! <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) to see the kinds of headaches caused by trying to reconcile JRRT’s early Balrog legions with his later conceptions. I’ll also note here for the record that some of the quotes that pro-wingers use to support their position (“with winged speed” and “flying from Thangorodrim”) date from or after the publication of LotR.

Sizes
These numbers look like pure speculation to me. The chasm that the bridge spans is 50 feet across, and the Second Hall seems to be portrayed as being longer than it is wide. I don’t think we can really make any meaningful deductions on the width of the hall, the chasm, or the Balrog’s wingspan. I don’t know enough about aerodynamics to know if the sizes you postulate are accurate or plausible (if any argument about such a thing as a Balrog can really be deemed plausible!), but I will make these points:

· The Chamber of Mazarbul, its doors, Moria, and Dwarvish works in general are not portrayed as cramped, confined spaces. As the Company approaches the room, they find themselves in a “wide corridor”, they enter through a door that is “high and flat-topped”, and they see that it is a “large” square chamber. The western door that they defend is large enough for trolls to bring battering “rams and hammers” to bear on it after it has been closed , and the eastern door that they exit through is opened and closed with “great iron rings”, hinting at a large size there, also. Remember that Smaug, inarguably much larger and with a greater wingspan than the Balrog, seemingly had no trouble negotiating most of the halls of Erebor, a lesser work compared to the mighty Khazad-dûm.

· Who says the Balrog “hid” its wings from the Company? When the door shatters during Gandalf’s first contest with it, he says, “Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside…” (c.f. in the previously linked thread references to comparisons of the winged Nazgûl steeds to “clouds”). Later, of course, its wings spread from wall to wall.

· The Balrog was “man-shaped” not “man-sized”. At the bridge, the Balrog “drew itself up to a great height” and there is the impression that it dwarfs Gandalf (who, remember, is standing in the middle of the bridge, at its highest point, while the Balrog is standing at its foot).

I give you credit for a new approach and interesting speculation, but I don’t think there’s convincing evidence here.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 7/12/01 1:23:24 pm

[Elenhin]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

Yes, my argument was highly speculative and I didn't intend it to be a conclusive evidence, but it was just one I hadn't seen here before. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Early Balrogs vs. post-LotR Balrogs
First, I'd like to say that the Balrogs were wingless from BoLT to the early 50s. In BoLT they are referred to as a &quot;cavalry&quot; (and they couldn't get up to Gondolin without the dragons) and for a later reference of unarguably wingeless Balrogs, you might want to see Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin: in the story Voronwe tells that no servant of Morgoth hadn't yet assailed the air. There is also a statement in The Lost Road that winged Dragons were Morgoth's first flying servants. But as I said, these are pre-LotR and cannot be used as a conclusive evidence. Especially when there are comments like &quot;with winged speed&quot;, and all the explicit statements of winglessness disappeared.

Fall of Gondolin &amp; Balrogs
It sure is difficult to adapt something from the BoLTs to fit the later stories, but I don't think that the Balrogs pose such a great challenge (except for the wings question). The large numbers of them could somewhat easily be changed into Balrogs lesser in numbers, but greater in power, as has been suggested on that thread. I don't really know about the Boldog business though - they aren't mentioned in any of the published writings, and IIRC Tolkien described them more as great Orc-chieftains than lesser Balrogs. By the way, couldn't trolls be used instead of large Balrog-hosts? Or maybe not - didn't the battle start just before sunrise?

Sizes
Yes, I was speculating... but that's at least how I saw the hall and the Balrog.

Yes, the bridge is 50 feet (I'll try to use feet this time; meters are just more natural for me <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ) long. And as I far as I know, the use of the word &quot;chasm&quot; would imply that the hole in the floor was wider than the bridge crossing it was long.

Chamber of Mazarbul, doors
Remember that Boromir was able to close the larger door alone, so it can't have been really huge, even if it was strong. I'd say that the descriptions of the doors indicate more strength and less size (I'd say that the &quot;high&quot; door was about 10 feet high), but it's of course only my vision of them and it's hard to argue about matters of taste.

Erebor comparison
Well, Smaug wasn't able to enter all the corridors in there, even if the main entrance was mighty in size. And we have to remember that Tolkien didn't call his dragons &quot;Worms&quot; for nothing: they were a lot thinner and longer than the ones generally seen in fantasy.

Balrog's shadow
The references to the Balrog's cloud, shadow or darkness around it are, in my opinion, too numerous to cast aside as unclear line of sight, darkness of the halls or observatins made in haste and fear. For example, &quot;The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.&quot; In that point the Balrog is clearly seen and there's a silent moment after Gandalf's threat. To me, this would tell that the Balrog was always surrounded by deep shadows, whose form it could freely change (even to the shape of wings).
This was somewhat off-point, but at least now you know what I believe of Balrog wings <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Size of the Balrog
I agree that it wasn't man-sized, but I don't think that it was much taller than 10 feet. Such length, combined with its wings/shadow could still give the impression of it dwarfing Gandalf. And if it wasn't taller than that, it would have had to &quot;hide&quot; its wings.

I realize that some of this isn't at all convincing to you, as you probably see the Balrog very differently than I do... But we can still exchange our visions <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


Thanks, Fingolfin <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

--
Elenhin

&quot;My god, it's full of stars!&quot;

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[Mister Underhill]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...we can still exchange our visions <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <hr></blockquote>Yes indeed! I see that was your first post here on the Downs and I hope I didn't give you a rude greeting. I like to think I have an open mind on this topic. I'm just saying that I ain't convinced that a Balrog couldn't tuck his wings away and easily negotiate all but the smallest service tunnels of Moria. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

But please, feel free to keep on expressing your ideas! Welcome to the Downs.


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[red]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I like to think I have an open mind on this topic. -Underhill<hr></blockquote>LOL!! Best joke yet, Underhill. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
j/k <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

-réd

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"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

FYI, Mithadan remains pro-wing but is far too busy to do much more than read posts and shoot off a short reply at best. I'll find time to do better next week (I hope).

Hi Red! Long time.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Fingolfin]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

There are underlying restrants for actual flight in the way of physics and physiology and so that arguemnt is hardly far-fetched.

If the Balrgo was truly of great size then we must assume he had extremely powerful (and Large)wings because I am sure hie did not hav enearly hollow bones or any of the other precursors of natural flight.

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[Eldarion son of Aragorn]

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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!! Not.

In the first age neither Dragon nor balrog had wings. Morgoth then decided that they should so he started on the dragons and when he finished with them he moved on to the balrogs he got some done before he was attacked so some had wings and some didn't. When the army knew that they were losing Durin's bain fled. How? He had wings and flew away!But some men or elves followed him and shot at him with arrows. Say one of them hits his wing he stumbles wearily to the ground and makes as best speed as he can and runs for the misty mountains which are close at hand. He finds a hole into the very deeps of the mountains and crumbles the passage-way so that no-one can follow him. Then he sleeps like a dragon at the deeps of the mountains until the dwarves awaken him he gets up and realises that the arrow that pierced him was from valinor and he could no longer use his wings BUT he still had them. This is merely my point of view at what happened with little real fact. I think this is the explaination of why the first age balrogs had no wings and the LoTR did not. Thanks for reading!

"He turned to Eldarion, and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Arnor, and bade him farewell."</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

If Tolkien gave wings to this Balrog in particular that does not mean this was his final or actual definition of a balrog. Let me explain, in many circumstances Tolkien created several versions of a story, so it is possible that at one point balrogs had wings and at a nother did not have wings. This is not the first unclear part of Tolkien's work, and I belive it exists because part of Tolkien's works are unfinished.
So if they didn't have wings, they could still fly by some other magical way. And if they had wings good for them.

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the first age neither Dragon nor balrog had wings. Morgoth then decided that they should so he started on the dragons and when he finished with them he moved on to the balrogs he got some done before he was attacked so some had wings and some didn't. <hr></blockquote>

I very seriously doubt that Morgoth changed the Balrogs appereance. Balrogs were Maiar and could change there own apperance without anyone else's help, also Morgoth couldn't even change his apperance.

I think that because they were Maiar Balrogs could change their apperance when needed thus some have wings some don't.


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[Eldarion son of Aragorn]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Still doesn't effect my point that i think the moria balrog was shot at while trying to flee and lost the use of his wings because the arrow was from valinor.

"He turned to Eldarion, and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Arnor, and bade him farewell."</p>

[Elenhin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Mr. Underhill, I didn't think your reply to be rude at all <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
(And even if I did, I wouldn't take it as evidence of inhospitality - Balrog wings are often a heated subject)

Eldarion, quite nice theory, but you have to admit, it's more speculative than mine... which is not necessarily a bad thing. The good thing in Tolkien's works is that they give room for imagination.

...but you still couldn't convince me that the Balrog was winged <img src=wink.gif ALT="">


--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

So The question is really whether the balrog had wings or just exerted a shadow-magicy-field-thingy behind him;

And I say, perhaps it is both and/or none all at once;

he could have had wings that were cloaked in shadows so that you could never really see the wings themselves, only their veil, thus accounting for the descriptions.

or

he could have had wings that were themselves shadows... either just in their non-light-field-type selves, or in a more ethereal shadow-rider-with-a-visual-manifestation kind of way.

and completely separate from that, the size of the wings is not a relavant point; if his wings were used to fly, they would have to be amazingly huge; keep in mind a bird has an ultra-light skeleton and feathers and a tail to help him fly; if a balrog was going to fly it would need all the help it could get, because no matter how you look at it, a balrog is big, and one would assume that it was quite muscular, so even if a balrog had a light skeleton, it would still weigh so much that it would need some disturbingly large wings. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

<hr> Join Me In My Travels... http://pub39.ezboard.com/btheezboardnomadsthe ezboard nomads</a></p>

[Fingolfin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

No, we already know balrgos were cloaake d in such a shadow as established inthe silm:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. <hr></blockquote>

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[Imbear Nolwehin]

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well, there you have it, no wings

Hantalyën, Fingolfin,
your quote has bolstered my faith again that Balrogs had no pragmatic wings. That is not to say that they couldn't move as fast as flight, or that they couldn't fly. I believe they were tremendous powers, and to those who viewed them it seemed as though wings of shadow cloaked them.

Imbëar


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[GandaIf The White]

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Re: well, there you have it, no wings

When the balrogs attacked Gondolin, how did they scale the huge cliffs? Did they have wings to fly up and over the mountain or were they just extremely good climbers? It is hard for me to believe that the climbed because they seem to have made it from the top of the cliffs down to the city while the sun was setting.. right? Wouldnt that kind of speed require wings? Or am I just confused about the seige of Gondolin.. does it say anywhere how long it took to get to Gondolin from outside of the mountain surrounding the city?

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Gandalf:
Remember that the Balrogs were moving with an Orc-host. Where ever the Balrogs went, the Orcs were with them. And we know that Orcs didn't fly...

Our only accurate desription of the siege and fall of Gondolin is in the Book of Lost Tales II. In that stage of the mythology the Balrogs were confirmably wingless, and in the story of the Fall of Gondolin, they rode on huge mechanical dragons. In later stages of Tolkien's life there were a lot less Balrogs (only seven) and they were considerably more powerful. Also, the mechanical dragons disappeared (at least they aren't mentioned), so I believe that the Balrogs, and Orcs as well, were quite good climbers <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

I have a new arguement withwhich to propell this discussion back to the top:

------------------------------------

(A knife in the dark):
It was burned and broken, and nothing remains of it now but a tumbled ring, like a rough crown on the old hill's head...
...suddenly a pale light appeared over the crown of Weathertop behind him.

-----

The Hill did not have a literal &quot;crown&quot; those were the ruins of Amon Sul and the &quot;crown&quot; was used as a simile

(The great river<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
As they were swept aside the travellers could see, now very close, the pale foam of the River lashing against sharp rocks that were thrust out far into the stream like a ridge of teeth...
...they could hear it rushing and foaming over the sharp shelves and stony teeth of Sarn Gebir, but they could not see it.



The river dd not have literal teeth, the &quot;teeth&quot; was a simile used to refer to the rocks
-----

The white rider:
Very soon now his strength will fall upon it like a storm...
...for behold! the storm comes, and now all friends should gather together, lest each singly be destroyed


It is clear here that Gandalf is not talking about a storm but rather the military might of Sauron.
----

(the siege of gondor<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
Reluctantly Pippin climbed on to the seat and looked out over the wall. The Pelennor lay dim beneath him, fading away to the scarce guessed line of the Great River. But now wheeling swiftly across it, like shadows of untimely night...
...now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards


The &quot;shadows &quot; were not literal shadows but were in fact akin to carrion with Nazgul atop them.
-----

Shelob's lair
It flamed like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light...
...then holding the star aloft and the bright sword advanced, Frodo, hobbit of the Shire, walked steadily down to meet the eye[/b]

the Phial of Galadriel was not a real star and the term star is simply a simile for it
-----


(The bride of Kazadum<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings...
...It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

The balrog does not have &quot;wings&quot; per-se and the term is simply used as a simile for the shadow and as with the previously cited examples when tolkien refers back to that object he simply refers to the simile.


----------------------

Now it took me a while to find all this so plz don't just brush it off <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Thanks Fingolfin!
I don't have the English books so I can't check up things like this... so this will be very helpful for me in future Balrog wing -debates. And of course it's a good point for no-wingers now as well <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Great work.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dread Horseman
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

You've negelected to include another from The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, Fin. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form... His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. <hr></blockquote>According to your own logic, then, the 'shadow' about the Balrog is only metaphorical and is used for dramatic effect to make the Balrog mysterious.

The cite you quote about the Nazgûl aboard their winged steed is a parallel example. I've cited several others towards the end of the debate linked to in my post above. Tolkien had a habit of describing his beasties and baddies as being 'like' shadows to heighten their menace and mysteriousness.

</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

shadow/darkness was a characteristic present on all Balrogs (refer to the silm quote above) What I am saying is tolkien uses &quot;wings&quot; as a simile for this shadow (hence the term &quot;like&quot and then refers back to the simile used instead of the term being described by the simile as per his common practice illistrated throu my quotes.

I do not say the shadow/darkness is metaphorical I am saying the &quot;wings&quot; are similic as evident by the term like.

The shadow IS a physical character istic of the Balrog and that was described using a simile and then tolkien refered back to that simile as is his common practice( he uses a simile to descrivbe something then later on refers to the simile when taliking about the object again)

THE SHADOW IS NOT METAPHORICAL IT IS AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTERISTIC OF A BALROG



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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Ah, But that does not disprove either of my assumptions... It Could have wings, of either sort, which fit all criteria, and that was my only point <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

<hr> Join Me In My Travels... http://pub39.ezboard.com/btheezboardnomadsthe ezboard nomads</a></p>

[SteadfastSam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

The question remains why the Balrog did not just fly away from Gandalf as they were falling. In my opinion the Balrog may have had wings, but not very well used for flying. He could only 'Glide', and ue his wings like birds of prey to beat his opponents with. Also if you are on fire all the time I guess you would get quite hot, so they could fan himself. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

"I will, Lord." said Tuor.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dread Horseman
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The shadow IS a physical character istic of the Balrog and that was described using a simile and then tolkien refered back to that simile as is his common practice( he uses a simile to descrivbe something then later on refers to the simile when taliking about the object again)

THE SHADOW IS NOT METAPHORICAL IT IS AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTERISTIC OF A BALROG<hr></blockquote>I’ve never quite been able to understand what people who hew to this theory picture when they think of a Balrog. If I were to see a Balrog, would it look like a walking black cloud (sort of like Pig-Pen from Peanuts only bigger, meaner, and more stinky)? That sort of vision is no more authoritatively established than wings are.

In my view, the “shadow” is just a way to describe the utterly black Balrog in the gloom of Khazad-dûm. Consider this sentence: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.<hr></blockquote>Here “shadow” clearly refers to the Balrog – it’s not some weird black vaporous emanation that plunges down and vanishes, leaving the Balrog standing there on the bridge without his cloud cover. I’ve cited several other similar instances where Tolkien referred to his bad guys as being “like shadows” – as was his common practice – http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...&t=000383x=100here</a> in the other thread.


</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

No a Shodow/darkeness which velied the Balrog is established in the silm:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. <hr></blockquote>

RE: With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, a nd its shadow plunged down and vanished.

I am sory this quote only helps me. &quot;its shadw plunged down and vanished&quot; obviously refering to a characteristic of the Balrog and hardly an indication of the shadow being simply metaphorical for it as it was with the nazgul.

The fact is I have presented evidence that the setup present in &quot;The Bridge...&quot; is not without presedant and that in fact olkien often uses as simile to describe something (as is clear by the temr &quot;like&quot; [It would make no sense for tolkien to use a simile to describe a metaphor as you aruge]). And now every one is ignoring all the work I did as if it didn't matter. <img src=frown.gif ALT="">



</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Balrogs DO have wings!!!

Plus tolkien never said the balrog itself was like a shadow he refered to the shadow as a characteristic feature as he did in the silm:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <u>The shadow about it</u> reached out like two vast wings<hr></blockquote>

The shadow is not the Balrog it is a characteristi feature which al balrogs are cloaked in.

</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Shadow

In the Later Quenta Silmarillion Tolkien describes Balrogs: &quot; ... their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness.&quot; ~~ Fellowship of the Ring: &quot;... like a great shadow, in the middle of which, was a dark form, ...&quot; &amp; ... the shadow about it reached out like vast wings.

The Balrogs form was dark there, yet further obscured by an encompasing &quot;cloak&quot; of shadow (about it) ... this made it further hard to see, adding to its mystery/terror (&quot;What it was could not be seen...&quot This agrees with the drafts, where *before* the introduction of the shadow into the text: &quot;The form of the Balrog is clearly perceived.&quot; (Christopher Tolkien) (no wings there too :-))

JRR Tolkien pencils a note to himself regarding the early draft description of the Balrog:

&quot;Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked.&quot; ~~ Christopher Tolkien: &quot;After the words 'through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to block out the light'. &quot;

Tolkiens 'new' Balrog is given a unique shadow <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Cheers~

</p>

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 17</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Shadow

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’ve never quite been able to understand what people who hew to this theory picture when they think of a Balrog. If I were to see a Balrog, would it look like a walking black cloud (sort of like Pig-Pen from Peanuts only bigger, meaner, and more stinky)? That sort of vision is no more authoritatively established than wings are.<hr></blockquote>

Quite much in the same way as they picture Ungoliant - both are described as having shadows and darkness about them.

And as others have stated, the Balrog's &quot;shadow-cloak&quot; is confirmed - it is referred to in the Silmarillion and LotR many times.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.<hr></blockquote>

That is one more reference to the dark aura of the Balrog. Sure it becomes darker if a fire is put out - but then it would have been &quot;The fire in it seemed to die, and the darkness grew&quot;, not &quot; but the darkness grew&quot;.

And just by coincidence, the description of Balrogs cloaked in shadow appeared in Silmarillion just after Tolkien had written the final version of LotR's Moria sequence.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>