Outrageous Quotes of the Week - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 12-16-2002, 12:41 PM

Most of us are eternally grateful for PJ's film release of LotR, even those who have criticisms about the way certain characters and events have been presented in the movie. However, the same can not be said for some of the feature articles that interpret the film, purport to compare it to the book, or, worst of all, describe fans of fantasy or Tolkien in less than glowing terms. Hey, if the book and/or film is so wonderful, why aren't the fans who discovered it long before the "masses" as a whole equally wonderful?Often, one has the distinct impression that the journalist has not come within one hundred miles of Tolkien's actual writings.This one really got my goat. <A HREF="http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=1378662002&tid=4" TARGET=_blank>web page</A>In this article entitled "Frodo Takes on the Mob", the author compares the LotR with the Godfather series. (Really!) He is quite positive about the film, but some of his interpretations make my hair stand on end. Let's start with this quote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet there is more; both sets of films have, in their own way, transcended their source material. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, I don't buy that. The film is great but it pails beside the book. Now, here comes the good part: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In The Fellowship of the Ring and now, The Two Towers, Peter Jackson achieved just that but against even greater odds. The fantasy genre, over which JRR Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings casts so dark a shadow, has long been the preserve of the socially maladjusted, men and women (I consider myself a recovered veteran) for whom personal hygiene is of secondary importance to a working knowledge of Elvish and who name their Ford Cortinas after Gandalf’s brave steed, Shadowfax. (For my sins, I was once an avid fanatic of Dungeons & Dragons and portrayed an Elfen ranger entitled Griswald the Bold. But let us draw a curtain over the folly of youth.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lack of personal hygiene....Grr! This chap is obviously bemoaning his youth. Plus, an "Elfen ranger"? What the blazes is an Elfen ranger? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jackson’s genius has been to treat the epic tale of Frodo the Hobbit’s journey to Mount Doom to destroy the ring of power not as fantasy, but as history. The elves and wizards, the orcs and trolls, dwarfs and demons of Middle Earth are not the denizens of another planet, which once existed "… in a galaxy far, far away". Instead, they once walked our planet, just as dinosaurs once did, or the armies of Alexander the Great, or the ancient druids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, mister, if you ever bothered to read the book seriously, you would see this has little to do with PJ. This is exactly what Tolkien said!Then, the journalist goes on to compare Frodo Baggins with Michael Corleone, pointing to a number of supposed similarities: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Frodo and Michael Corleone are both on journeys of personal salvation and neither will succeed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agh! I know I am overprotective of hobbits and Frodo, but this is ridiculous. If I started a thread on the Downs making this analogy, people would rightfully throw eggs at me.Yes, there are a few good points made in this article, but they are lost amid the drivel. I am laughing, but I also want to make a serious point. To many of these film critcs and feature writers don't have the foggiest idea what's realy going on in the books.[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

LePetitChoux · 12-16-2002, 12:44 PM

Um, I'm afraid the address isn't working...

Child of the 7th Age · 12-16-2002, 01:13 PM

I fixed the link.

Nenya · 12-16-2002, 02:02 PM

I see your point, Child, but I personally didn't hate the article. I actually quite liked it. And I found the part about fantasy-geeks ignoring personal hygiene funny. Yes, it's stereotypichal, I know. But we mustn't take ourselves too seriously. (well wasn't that a patronizing and stupid comment. I apologise but won't be bothered to change it) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jackson’s genius has been to treat the epic tale of Frodo the Hobbit’s journey to Mount Doom to destroy the ring of power not as fantasy, but as history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it was Tolkien who made Middle Earth seem like history, but Jackson could've messed it up easily. Instead he managed to make the film ME look credible too. And that's no small achivement. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo and Michael Corleone are both on journeys of personal salvation and neither will succeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Okay, I agree with you. But I still get what he must mean.[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

Child of the 7th Age · 12-16-2002, 03:31 PM

Nenya,You are more kind hearted than I am! No, I'm not losing any sleep over this, but I still think there's something in what I say. There's an awful lot of oversimplification going on right now. Of course, that makes the insightful pieces of journalism stand out all the more. To me, that journalist's comments on how PJ turned fantasy into history shows that he had never really read the original. Yes, PJ could have messed up, and he didn't. But there's no question that Tolkien's writings clearly have the flavor of history, and he said many times that M-E is our own world. I think that someone who does a feature article of this sort should know something basic like this. And Frodo as Michael Corleone? His whole point is that Frodo failed and so did Corleone. But so did all the other tragic heroes in the entire body of world literature. By that standard, Frodo could be King Arthur or any of the heroes of the ancient Greek theater. These make as much or more sense than a modern mobster! sharon

Diamond18 · 12-16-2002, 08:15 PM

Sharon, I agree with you. Totally. But since you have pointed out the bad parts of the article, allow me to highlight the good parts (or at least the funny ones): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Lord of the Rings trilogy beats the cannolis out of The Godfather. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, at least he got that part right. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For too long, fans of The Fellowship of the Ring, last Christmas’s gift to the world of cinema, have been content to crow over the film’s superiority over the Star Wars trilogy, or even the pitiful Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s [er...huh?]Stone. This strikes me as displaying a woeful lack of ambition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If that is in any way true I am indeed shamed. I should try harder. When I meet people who didn't even watch LotR or "don't care much for fantasy anyway" should I stand up for it more? A thought, hmmm... After all, when "A Beautiful Mind" stole all those Oscars that rightfully belonged to LotR (especially the best adapted screenplay one...they aspired to the impossible dream and didn't fall flat on their faces...how does ABM compare to that?) ... anyway, I say, when that happened why didn't we stage a protest and demand a recount? Or something? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The fact is that The Two Towers has demonstrated that you can improve on perfection and deliver a sequel more thrilling, of even greater visual splendour and emotional depth than its predecessor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I hope that's a true statement. I'll find out Wednesday. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In The Two Towers, the epic battle of Helm’s Deep, which takes up the last 45 minutes of the film - in which Aragorn (Viggo Mortensen) and Théoden, the Fallen King of Rohan (Bernard Hill) fight for the future of mankind against forces of great evil (what else?) - is more easily comparable to Braveheart than other fantasy films such as Willow or Krull. And the death of Boromir (Sean Bean) in the first film and his dying speech pledging allegiance to Aragorn as "my comrade, my captain, my king", is as believable and powerful as any of Shakespeare’s scenes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So true, except that he forgot to give the credit to Tolkien, again. My library puts Tolkien's books in the "regular" fiction section instead of the Sci-Fi section, and that's exactly the way it should be. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 5ft actors playing 3ft hobbits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Five feet? This guy has a serious "exaggeration" problem going...that's his main weakness, I think. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Tickets for The Two Towers’s opening night sizzle within my wallet and at night I cradle them and coo: "my precious". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh dear. [ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Birdland · 12-17-2002, 09:34 AM

Child, I think we are all going to have to prepare ourselves for a backlash against P.J.'s second film. When he was the plucky unknown Kiwi film maker who took on the Hollywood system to make a great epic, then the media elite were probably more on his side. But now he's a hugely successful director whose film has grossed almost a billion (that's not a exageration, FoTR has grossed something like 980 million dollars to date for New Line!) So we should all get ready for the "tearing down of P.J." There is a class of critics out there who are bound and determined not to like anything that has been embraced by the masses. They are so frightened of being tarred with the brush of "ordinary" that they feel it is their sacred duty to belittle and demean anything that smacks of being "popular". Also be prepared for the conceit of sending out journalists who do not like the fantasy genre to review the film, in order that it might be "judged on its own merits". (Never mind that this makes as much sense as sending someone who doesn't like football to cover the game.)So take a deep breath folks, and count to ten. You are going to read many more negative, belittling reviews of P.J.'s "sophmore effort". And the higher the critic places himself amongst the heights of "coolness", the nastier the review will be.

Nenya · 12-17-2002, 10:30 AM

A Beautiful Mind got the adapted screenplay oscar?!! No way did they deserve it even without LotR being in the game, but with this script as a rival, it shouldn't have even had a chance! Ok, I'm being a bit harsh ( A Beautiful Mind was afterall a good movie), but I went to see it with a friend who's mom is schizophrenic and I couldn't stand the fact that they made the guy's life look much moore prettier, more Hollywood stuff. (For example they mentioned nothing of him being bi-sexual.)Oh, and about the article. I'm nicer to the writer guy, because he liked the movies. How ojective of me.

Birdland · 12-17-2002, 10:53 AM

OK, that will teach me to read the article before spouting off. The above commentary was hardly negative...it was however; totally bizarre! But hey, Child, at least the guy is still a fan.Now just remember everyone, to please shower and use deoderant before heading out for the midnight show.

12-16-2002, 12:41 PM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Outrageous Quotes of the Week Most of us are eternally grateful for PJ's film release of LotR, even those who have criticisms about the way certain characters and events have been presented in the movie. However, the same can not be said for some of the feature articles that interpret the film, purport to compare it to the book, or, worst of all, describe fans of fantasy or Tolkien in less than glowing terms. Hey, if the book and/or film is so wonderful, why aren't the fans who discovered it long before the "masses" as a whole equally wonderful?<P>Often, one has the distinct impression that the journalist has not come within one hundred miles of Tolkien's actual writings.<P>This one really got my goat. <P><A HREF="http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=1378662002&tid=4" TARGET=_blank>web page</A><P>In this article entitled "Frodo Takes on the Mob", the author compares the LotR with the Godfather series. (Really!) He is quite positive about the film, but some of his interpretations make my hair stand on end. Let's start with this quote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet there is more; both sets of films have, in their own way, transcended their source material. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I don't buy that. The film is great but it pails beside the book. Now, here comes the good part:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In The Fellowship of the Ring and now, The Two Towers, Peter Jackson achieved just that but against even greater odds. The fantasy genre, over which JRR Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings casts so dark a shadow, <I>has long been the preserve of the socially maladjusted, men and women (I consider myself a recovered veteran) for whom personal hygiene is of secondary importance to a working knowledge of Elvish and who name their Ford Cortinas after Gandalf’s brave steed, Shadowfax.</I> (For my sins, I was once an avid fanatic of Dungeons & Dragons and portrayed an Elfen ranger entitled Griswald the Bold. But let us draw a curtain over the folly of youth.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lack of personal hygiene....Grr! This chap is obviously bemoaning his youth. Plus, an "Elfen ranger"? What the blazes is an Elfen ranger?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><I>Jackson’s genius has been to treat the epic tale of Frodo the Hobbit’s journey to Mount Doom to destroy the ring of power not as fantasy, but as history.</I> The elves and wizards, the orcs and trolls, dwarfs and demons of Middle Earth are not the denizens of another planet, which once existed "… in a galaxy far, far away". Instead, they once walked our planet, just as dinosaurs once did, or the armies of Alexander the Great, or the ancient druids. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, mister, if you ever bothered to read the book seriously, you would see this has little to do with PJ. This is exactly what Tolkien said!<P>Then, the journalist goes on to compare Frodo Baggins with Michael Corleone, pointing to a number of supposed similarities:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Frodo and Michael Corleone are both on journeys of personal salvation and neither will succeed. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Agh! I know I am overprotective of hobbits and Frodo, but this is ridiculous. If I started a thread on the Downs making this analogy, people would rightfully throw eggs at me.<P>Yes, there are a few good points made in this article, but they are lost amid the drivel. I am laughing, but I also want to make a serious point. To many of these film critcs and feature writers don't have the foggiest idea what's realy going on in the books.<p>[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

12-16-2002, 12:44 PM	#2
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	Um, I'm afraid the address isn't working... __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

12-16-2002, 01:13 PM	#3
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	I fixed the link. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

12-16-2002, 02:02 PM	#4
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	I see your point, Child, but I personally didn't hate the article. I actually quite liked it. And I found the part about fantasy-geeks ignoring personal hygiene funny. Yes, it's stereotypichal, I know. But we mustn't take ourselves too seriously. (well wasn't that a patronizing and stupid comment. I apologise but won't be bothered to change it)<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jackson’s genius has been to treat the epic tale of Frodo the Hobbit’s journey to Mount Doom to destroy the ring of power not as fantasy, but as history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, it was Tolkien who made Middle Earth seem like history, but Jackson could've messed it up easily. Instead he managed to make the film ME look credible too. And that's no small achivement.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo and Michael Corleone are both on journeys of personal salvation and neither will succeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay, I agree with you. But I still get what he must mean.<p>[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

12-16-2002, 03:31 PM	#5
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Nenya,<P>You are more kind hearted than I am! No, I'm not losing any sleep over this, but I still think there's something in what I say. There's an awful lot of oversimplification going on right now. Of course, that makes the insightful pieces of journalism stand out all the more. <P>To me, that journalist's comments on how PJ turned fantasy into history shows that he had never really read the original. Yes, PJ could have messed up, and he didn't. But there's no question that Tolkien's writings clearly have the flavor of history, and he said many times that M-E is our own world. I think that someone who does a feature article of this sort should know something basic like this. <P>And Frodo as Michael Corleone? His whole point is that Frodo failed and so did Corleone. But so did all the other tragic heroes in the entire body of world literature. By that standard, Frodo could be King Arthur or any of the heroes of the ancient Greek theater. These make as much or more sense than a modern mobster! <P>sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

12-16-2002, 08:15 PM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Sharon, I agree with you. Totally. But since you have pointed out the bad parts of the article, allow me to highlight the good parts (or at least the funny ones):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Lord of the Rings trilogy beats the cannolis out of The Godfather. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, at least he got that part right. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For too long, fans of The Fellowship of the Ring, last Christmas’s gift to the world of cinema, have been content to crow over the film’s superiority over the Star Wars trilogy, or even the pitiful Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s [er...huh?]Stone. This strikes me as displaying a woeful lack of ambition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If that is in any way true I am indeed shamed. I should try harder. When I meet people who didn't even watch LotR or "don't care much for fantasy anyway" should I stand up for it more? A thought, hmmm... After all, when "A Beautiful Mind" stole all those Oscars that rightfully belonged to LotR (especially the best adapted screenplay one...they aspired to the impossible dream and didn't fall flat on their faces...how does ABM compare to <I>that?</I>) ... anyway, I say, when that happened why didn't we stage a protest and demand a recount? Or something? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The fact is that The Two Towers has demonstrated that you can improve on perfection and deliver a sequel more thrilling, of even greater visual splendour and emotional depth than its predecessor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I hope that's a true statement. I'll find out Wednesday.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In The Two Towers, the epic battle of Helm’s Deep, which takes up the last 45 minutes of the film - in which Aragorn (Viggo Mortensen) and Théoden, the Fallen King of Rohan (Bernard Hill) fight for the future of mankind against forces of great evil (what else?) - is more easily comparable to Braveheart than other fantasy films such as Willow or Krull. And the death of Boromir (Sean Bean) in the first film and his dying speech pledging allegiance to Aragorn as "my comrade, my captain, my king", is as believable and powerful as any of Shakespeare’s scenes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So true, except that he forgot to give the credit to Tolkien, again. My library puts Tolkien's books in the "regular" fiction section instead of the Sci-Fi section, and that's exactly the way it should be. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 5ft actors playing 3ft hobbits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Five feet? This guy has a serious "exaggeration" problem going...that's his main weakness, I think. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Tickets for The Two Towers’s opening night sizzle within my wallet and at night I cradle them and coo: "my precious". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh dear. <p>[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-17-2002, 09:34 AM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Child, I think we are all going to have to prepare ourselves for a backlash against P.J.'s second film. When he was the plucky unknown Kiwi film maker who took on the Hollywood system to make a great epic, then the media elite were probably more on his side. <P>But now he's a hugely successful director whose film has grossed almost a billion (that's not a exageration, FoTR has grossed something like 980 million dollars to date for New Line!)<BR> <BR>So we should all get ready for the "tearing down of P.J." There is a class of critics out there who are bound and determined not to like anything that has been embraced by the masses. They are so frightened of being tarred with the brush of "ordinary" that they feel it is their sacred duty to belittle and demean anything that smacks of being "popular". <P>Also be prepared for the conceit of sending out journalists who do not like the fantasy genre to review the film, in order that it might be "judged on its own merits". (Never mind that this makes as much sense as sending someone who doesn't like football to cover the game.)<P>So take a deep breath folks, and count to ten. You are going to read many more negative, belittling reviews of P.J.'s "sophmore effort". And the higher the critic places himself amongst the heights of "coolness", the nastier the review will be.

12-17-2002, 10:30 AM	#8
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	A Beautiful Mind got the adapted screenplay oscar?!! No way did they deserve it even without LotR being in the game, but with <I>this</I> script as a rival, it shouldn't have even had a chance! Ok, I'm being a bit harsh ( A Beautiful Mind was afterall a good movie), but I went to see it with a friend who's mom is schizophrenic and I couldn't stand the fact that they made the guy's life look much moore prettier, more Hollywood stuff. (For example they mentioned nothing of him being bi-sexual.)<P>Oh, and about the article. I'm nicer to the writer guy, because he liked the movies. How ojective of me.

12-17-2002, 10:53 AM	#9
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	OK, that will teach me to read the article before spouting off. The above commentary was hardly negative...it was however; totally bizarre! But hey, Child, at least the guy is still a fan.<P>Now just remember everyone, to please shower and use deoderant before heading out for the midnight show.