Bombadil's brooch

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

On the Barrow Downs, when he rescues the hobbits from the barrow-wight, Tom Bombadil takes one brooch from the hoard of treasure for himself and Goldberry as a memento mori of its past owner. I've always assumed that this was an oblique reference to Luthien, but since I haven't read the Silmarillion for some time there may be a better candidate that I've forgotten. Do any suggest themselves?

[Mithadan]

Welcome to the Downs, Squatter!

Most assume that Bombadil's brooch belonged to some princess or queen of Arnor. It is somewhat unlikely that a piece of jewelry belonging to Luthien would pass through all those generations to someone living in the North Kingdom.

Related question, one of the heirlooms which Aragorn possessed was the Ring of Barahir. This would likely be something which would be in the possession of the highest member of the Lords of Andunie. By the time of the Last Alliance, this would be Elendil. How would this end up in possession of someone in the North kingdom after the deaths of Elendil and Isildur considering that Isildur's body was never recovered?

[Mister Underhill]

Let me extend my welcome as well, Squatter!

As to Barahir's ring, one can only assume that Isildur passed it to his esquire Ohtar (along with the shards of Narsil), who then fled with a companion and survived to tell the tale, per UT.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Voronwe]

Or perhaps Elendil simply left the ring of Barahir behind in Rivendell or some other place in the north, since it wouldn't be much use to him in the war. It could then have passed onto Valandil without too much difficulty. If Isildur had given the ring to Ohtar along with Narsil, it would likely have been mentioned.

-Voronwe

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

My thanks to you both.
It did seem a little unlikely to me as well, but so eager was I to find out a bit more of this enigmatic character that I suppose I just grabbed a name that fitted.

It's an interesting point about the ring; perhaps, like Thror's, it was passed on before the owner set out (the jealousy of the One, perhaps). Rings do seem to find their way to the right (or wrong) people with Tolkien.

[the real findorfin]

I beleive that somewhere in Unfished Tales it says that Saruman's tower was cleared and treasures of Old times pours out, namely the Elendilmir and was it the Ring of Brahir?

i can't remember but I think that this maybe right.

[akhtene]

I have no idea as to how the ring didn't perish with Isildur. Perhaps he had given it to his heir. But it seems the ring was kept by the Kings of the Northern Kingdom.
The Appendix says it was given by Arvedui Last King to the Snowmen as thanks for food and shelter. Later the ring was ransomed by Dunedain and kept in Rivendell.

[Frodo Baggins]

Well all i know is that when Aragorn "came of age" when he was 20 years old, Elrond told him his real name and linage and gave to him the shards of Narsil and the Rring of Barahir, he later gave him the scepter of Annuminas when he became king. How Elrond got them I don't know.

[Selmo]

The heirlooms of th Northern Kingdom, including the Sword, the Ring and the Sceptre, were given to Elrond for safe-keeping after the colapse of that Realm in 1974 TA.
Elrond kept them for almost a thousand years before giving them to Aragorn. He didn't give them to any other Chieftain of the North so he must have been very sure that Aragorn was to be the man to re-establish the Kingdom.

Interesting discussion about the Ring of Barahir. But to go back to the beginning: Is there anything known about the fair lady who once wore the blue brooch? Or about the battle at the Barrow-Downs at all?

[Angry Hill Troll]

Regarding the Barrow and the Brooch contained therein, see "The Barrowdowns" under "Previous Themes" on the BD homepage.

The Barrowdowns were used as burial places by the Men of the First Age, and in the 3rd Age by the people of Cardolan. The Brandywine River and the East Road formed the boundary between Arthedain and Cardolan.

The Barrowdowns theme page says that "it is believed" that the barrow in which the hobbits were imprisoned was the burial place of the last prince of Cardolan. (Does anybody know on exactly what grounds that statement is made?)

If we assume that to be true, then the brooch probably belonged to some female relative (e.g. his wife, mother, sister, daughter) to whom the Prince had given it, and who returned it as a burial offering.

That's my guess...I don't think we're going to come up with the owner's name.

[Lalaith]

Or, if it was a family barrow, his wife would have been buried with him.

[Lalaith]

Here's something I found on a discussion site, I'm pasting the quote rather than giving a link as the site is down and I had to go into the cache...

The passge implies a personal knowledge and a sense of regret and loss. I almost get the feeling he knew the very woman who wore that brooch and was not merely speaking figuratively. I think Tom watched out for the remnant of the Dunedain of Cardolan and protected them in his little realm for over 200 years until disease finished them off.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Lalaith, I agree completely with that quote. It seems clear to me that Tom did actually know the owner personally, he just didn't mention her name to the Hobbits because they wouldn't have heard of her and it just would be a name as far as they were concerned.

Tom seems to be quite knowledgable about the outside world for such a homebody. I'm still trying to figure out how he knew (of) Farmer Maggot. It's a little difficult to picture the Farmer tramping through the Old Forest or Tom through the Shire.

If anyone is looking for a Fan-Fic idea, it strikes me that the Fair Lady of Cardolan would be a worthy recipient. She seems to have made quite a favorable impression on Tom B. even 1500 years later, but unfortunately we don't know her name or hardly anything about her. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Evisse the Blue]

So nowhere in Tolkien's works is there a further mention to the 'Fair lady of Cardolan'. Can we call her the Dark Lady of Tolkien's epics? Or even better, the Dark lady of Tom Bombadil?

Here be speculation:
It was said a few posts back that the barrow belonged to the last prince of Cardolan and that the woman was probably a relative of his. What follows is the logical reasoning:
After Arnor was divided, and Cardolan and Rhudaur's rulers were destroyed by Angmar whoever ruled Arthedain also ruled Cardolan and Rhudaur. The last king of Arthedain was Arvedui, who married Firiel, the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor, in the hope that he might gain rulership over his realm as well. He didn't. However his own lands were attacked by the evil king of Angmar. He ran away and died in the bay of Forochel. Of course, his son, could have brought his body back and buried it in the barrow, and his mother's as well. Firiel could be the lady Tom is reminded of.

This is based on bits of information, though. Maybe more information is found in HoME (which sadly, I don't have) or in BoLT. What says everybody?

[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

[Voralphion]

I always thought that Arvedui died when his ships sunk, he would have been lost with the ships, so I don't think the barrow would have belonged to the last king of Arnor. It is possible that Tom Bombadil did know the lady however as I don't think he always confined himself to his lands. He must have ventured further at one time for the elves to know him. Perhaps he was also known by the inhabitants of Arnor.

[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: Voralphion ]

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Tom seems to be quite knowledgable about the outside world for such a homebody. I'm still trying to figure out how he knew (of) Farmer Maggot. It's a little difficult to picture the Farmer tramping through the Old Forest or Tom through the Shire.

But I thought it said somewhere in LotR that Farmer Maggot did go through the old Forest. Didn't old Bombadil say so?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

The Barrowdowns theme page says that "it is believed" that the barrow in which the hobbits were imprisoned was the burial place of the last prince of Cardolan. (Does anybody know on exactly what grounds that statement is made?)

Angry Troll, this is said in the Appendices [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]:

Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409
Appendix A; LotR

Elentári, you are rigth, even though it is Merry who actually says that [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]:

'Old Maggot is a shrewd fellow', said Merry. 'A lot goes on behind his round face that does not come out in his talk. I've heard he used to go into the Old Forest at one time, and he has the reputation of knowing a good many strange things'
A Conspiracy Unmasked; LotR

But in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it is Tom who goes out of the Old Forest to a party in Maggot's Farm:

Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,
his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty.
Songs they had and merry tales, the supping and the dancing;
Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing,
Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing,
daughters did the Springle-ring, goodwife did the laughing.
Bombadil Goes Boating; The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Oops. Well thanks for the correction [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[arcticstorm]

When I read through this passage, Tom's tone of voice and wording almost sounds somber as if he is mourning for the loss of this person as if they were really close.
Assuming that the Barrow downs and with them the Barrow wights began their existence in the war that lasted from TA 1409- TA 1975, we can tell from the Adventures of Tom Bombadil that Tom didn't marry Goldberry until sometime after that point, because the Barrow-Wight attempted to "kill" him. Tom married Goldberry after this time. It would indeed be odd for him, being "alive" from the beginning, to be unmarried until about TA 2000.
Obviously, the person this brooch belonged to, is one that Tom highly admired, or even deeply loved,
"Goldberry will where it now, and we will not forget her"-- Tom Bombadil

If it is to be assumed that the Barrow-wight could heve killed Tom if he would have let him, what is saying that the Wight couldn't have killed Tom's former wife, if indeed he had one. Tom isn't omniscient , he needed Frodo to call for his help to even be able to come help the hobbits. if his former wife was wandering alone and taken by the wight to the barrow, she may not have been able to call for help, think about Sam, Merry, and Pippen. I do not think everything in the barrow was buried with him, maybe some of the treasure came from his victims.
Therefore, I think this brooch came from Tom's former wife, who is never mentioned or alluded to in the story but is a high possibility.

[Thinlómien]

All I can say is that this would make a fabulous RPG.

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

All I can say is that this would make a fabulous RPG.

Aye, I'll drink to that.

[Bêthberry]

Why don't we just imagine that Tom's first wife is kept hidden away in an upstairs room somewhere, unbeknownst to Goldberry?