gimli in valinor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dwarfwarrior · 05-22-2003, 03:00 PM

what was there for gimli in valinor?would he not be looked down upon for being a dwarf?

Eruwen · 05-22-2003, 03:19 PM

Did Gimli even go to Valinor? I thought he just went sailing with Legolas. Of course, I could be wrong...this happens alot... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Yavanna228 · 05-22-2003, 03:33 PM

In Appendix B it says

Quote:

Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over the Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf.

Apparently, 'over the Sea' means going to Valinor. And about whether Gimli would be looked down on, remember that Aule made the dwarves, so I don't think he would be completely snubbed, since one of the Vala made his race. That's just my thoughts, so anyone else have any info?
Peace

Legolas · 05-22-2003, 04:20 PM

He probably received some odd looks, but I do not think the people of Aman would be so shallow as to ridicule him. Seems that the elves would lose their dislike for the dwarves after being among Maiar and Valar for so long. If it was Numenor, perhaps, but the Ainur had deep appreciation for all that Eru gave life. The Teleri may not be pleased, remembering the death of Thingol, but hopefully they would hear out the deeds of Gimli and observe his friendship with Legolas and Galadriel. Legolas wouldn't have much influence aside from simply being an elf with a dwarf friend (until they heard the tale of his deeds also), but Galadriel was the most beautiful of Finwe's house and greatest of the Noldor (save perhaps Feanor, who is held in the halls of Mandos), and at her word, they would undoubtedly welcome him.

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-22-2003, 04:54 PM

Perhaps Gimli had a secret agenda all along. What better way to get into the record books as first Dwarf to enter Valinor than to butter up one of the greatest of the Noldor and form a strong friendship with another Elf who might be able to get you there? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

GaladrieloftheOlden · 05-22-2003, 05:03 PM

Tee-hee. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (By the way, Saucepan Man, I like the avatar.)

I don't think Gimli was actually even thinking of Valinor earlier. I would imagine that it came as something of a surprise to him when Legolas asked him to come with him to the Undying Lands. I wouldn't be surprised if at first the Elves avoided him, but they would probably grow used to having a dwarf among them.

~Menelien

Birdland · 05-22-2003, 11:28 PM

Since no mortals were allowed to enter Valinor, I can only suppose that Gimli only made it as far as Tol Eressëa.

Hey, if it was off-limits to Frodo, then there's no way that they'd let a dwarf in.

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Tar-Palantir · 05-22-2003, 11:48 PM

Just like the hobbits though, he wouldn't have had much time to enjoy it! He was already about 260 years old by that point. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] poor old Gimli...

Lalaith · 05-23-2003, 03:21 AM

I'd always imagined, in my foolish romantic way, that he just wanted to see Galadriel again before he died.

Findegil · 05-23-2003, 05:11 AM

I imaging that Gimli had already felt the oncoming of old age when Aragorn died. He would ahve know that Legolas was to sail west and I imagined Gimli asking Legolas to take him abord for only that purpose: See Galadriel again before he died.
But well, old age lasted for about ten years in race of Dúrin. And I think ten years in Eressea are a very fine expierence.

Wouldn't you give a lot for having a chance to see that island, even when it was only for short moment? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Respectfully
Findegil

Aule · 05-23-2003, 07:16 AM

I would be surprised if he wasn't greeted with open arms by the Eldar and Valar. Surely the Noldor would greet him just because they loved Aule (me! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]).

Vanyar would greet him because he has been allowed in, to do otherwise would be disrespecting the Vala and their wishes. Being wise and everything i don't think they would have anything against him even though he be rough and unlovely to look on.
The Teleri, well i have no idea what the

Teleri would think, maybe they would still hold a grudge but i would think that to be short lived esp after Galadriel gives a little talk on how brave Gimli is.

My 2 cents [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

drigel · 05-23-2003, 01:56 PM

The thought of Gimli doing that for Galadriel is so sad! Tragic and heroic at the same time. Whats happening to me? lol

balrogman · 05-24-2003, 11:11 AM

hmmmm this is a good one...he probably wouldnt be allowed to go to valinor and stay at eressea, but im sure legolas would stay with him and galadrial probably visited!

the guy who be short · 05-25-2003, 11:07 AM

where does it say that Frodo was not allowed in Valinor? Or is this just opinion?

Finwe · 05-26-2003, 04:26 PM

I think that Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli would have been allowed to go to Valinor. It was just the Elves involved in the Rebellion of the Noldor who were "condemned" to live in Tol Eressea, not in Valinor. Considering the personal sacrifices that those three made, I think it would be unfair to prevent them from coming to Valinor. After all, how would Frodo be healed? I'm sure that he must have needed a little shuteye in the gardens of Lorien.

drigel · 05-27-2003, 09:09 AM

Would Frodo or Gimli even want to go? If I were on an island in Paradise, would I even care what was at the end of the Eresea to Valinor fairy express?

12-20-2003, 10:09 PM

I think Legolas would be just as out of place as Gimli. Remember that he is Moriquendi, and his ancestors never saw the light of the two trees. The ban of the Valar yet applies to him. I also think that in light of Gimli and Legolas', as well as the hobbits' heroic deeds in the War of the Ring, they would have been welcomed onto the white shores of Valinor with open arms, and then lived there in bliss unto the end of their days. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the exiled Noldor were not confined to Tol Eressea, but if they renounced their pride, they were likewise welcomed back into Valinor.

Olorin_TLA · 12-21-2003, 11:03 AM

They'd be just as welcome as anyone else in Valinor. It's not an unfriendly palce you know...

Galdriel, mroe than anything, would have been Gimli's reason for going. :'(

Imagine the pampering he'd get from Aule though!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 12-21-2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

If I were on an island in Paradise, would I even care what was at the end of the Eresea to Valinor fairy express?

I know I would.... But I think it was stated in Letters, at least, that Frodo and Bilbo (and later Sam [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) all remained in Tol Eressea. Sad, but it unfortunately appears to be true. If they weren't allowed in, I doubt that Gimli would be, either. Now if someone knows where to find the quote....

purplefluffychainsaw · 12-23-2003, 08:30 AM

The Vanya wouldn't have ever seen dwarves before. They might have heard of them but they never would have seen one. I bet Gimli would have got some attention from them [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And the Noldor... Well the ones that came back from Middle Earth might be glad to see a memoia from ME, but they might not like him for the same reason...

12-24-2003, 02:56 PM

it says that any mortal who gets "across the sea" must still die but it says they die of their own free will so he would have died when he fancied it so he would have as much time to do what he wants (supposing he gets in)

Finwe · 12-24-2003, 04:38 PM

We know that Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli "get in" to Valinor, because Tolkien tells us so. The only "iffy" Hobbit is Sam, but I'm pretty sure that he made it to Valinor.

I see no reason why Legolas shouldn't be allowed into Valinor, Neithan. He did no wrong. In fact, he did a great thing, helping to heal the rift between the Elves and Dwarves. Since when does being Moriquendi exclude one from sailing to Valinor? This isn't pre-Civil War society, where having African blood made you an outcast in the eyes of the "pure-blood" Anglo-Americans.

Kalimac · 12-24-2003, 07:02 PM

Luthien, I remember that bit from the Letters, too. Though I don't believe I'd feel grudging if I were *only* allowed to stop at Tol Eressea - I doubt it was exactly an unpleasant place, and in some ways may have been more comfortable for mortals who weren't originally designed to be in that region at all.

As for Gimli, I'm sure that the chance to see Galadriel would outweigh any other considerations. Though if he was set off at Tol Eressea - and he probably would be - I'd hope that at least one of the hobbits would still be around for companionship. They'd have to have lived an awfully long time beyond the normal hobbit-span, though.

12-25-2003, 07:09 AM

Dont forget Aule could be tom bombadil so he wouldnt be in valinor to stick up for the dwarves

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 12-28-2003, 04:59 PM

Just as an interesting point: If you look in the appendices, you'll find that Gimli died the same year he set sail with Legolas. So it would appear that he only just got to see The Blessed Realm, maybe live there for a very short time, and then died. Sad, but in a way kind of beautiful, too. (You see from the dwarven family tree at the end of Appnedix A that Gimli died in Fourth Age 120, and in Appendix B it says that he set sail that same year).

Finwe · 12-28-2003, 05:04 PM

That supports the common theory that Gimli set sail to Aman just to look upon Lady Galadriel's face, "one last time." It seems like something he would do.

12-30-2003, 05:26 AM

i think he would have been allowed there, he was given life to by eru and the elves would respect that, anyway frodo was allowed to go so why shouldnt gimli be allowed

Olorin_TLA · 12-30-2003, 11:32 AM

Ah, but who's to say that for the sake of record keeping, sicne nobody in Middle-earth knew when he died in Valinor, that his death was recorded as the alst year he spent in Mortal Lands?

About Tol Erresea...yes, it does seem anticlimatic, cruel even, to not let them go beyond. From my point of view...the Middle-earthans [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] , especially Elves, seem to have viewed it as being Paradise eqaul to Valinor. Wierd?

Finwe · 12-30-2003, 04:10 PM

That's quite true. I don't think anyone had the time, resources, authority, or inclination to sail all the way to Aman and back just to find out if the Dwarf was dead or not. *snickers*

05-22-2003, 03:00 PM	#1
dwarfwarrior Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	gimli in valinor what was there for gimli in valinor?would he not be looked down upon for being a dwarf?

05-22-2003, 04:20 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	He probably received some odd looks, but I do not think the people of Aman would be so shallow as to ridicule him. Seems that the elves would lose their dislike for the dwarves after being among Maiar and Valar for so long. If it was Numenor, perhaps, but the Ainur had deep appreciation for all that Eru gave life. The Teleri may not be pleased, remembering the death of Thingol, but hopefully they would hear out the deeds of Gimli and observe his friendship with Legolas and Galadriel. Legolas wouldn't have much influence aside from simply being an elf with a dwarf friend (until they heard the tale of his deeds also), but Galadriel was the most beautiful of Finwe's house and greatest of the Noldor (save perhaps Feanor, who is held in the halls of Mandos), and at her word, they would undoubtedly welcome him. [ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-22-2003, 04:54 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Perhaps Gimli had a secret agenda all along. What better way to get into the record books as first Dwarf to enter Valinor than to butter up one of the greatest of the Noldor and form a strong friendship with another Elf who might be able to get you there? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

05-22-2003, 05:03 PM	#6
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	Tee-hee. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (By the way, Saucepan Man, I like the avatar.) I don't think Gimli was actually even thinking of Valinor earlier. I would imagine that it came as something of a surprise to him when Legolas asked him to come with him to the Undying Lands. I wouldn't be surprised if at first the Elves avoided him, but they would probably grow used to having a dwarf among them. ~Menelien __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

05-22-2003, 11:48 PM	#8
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	Just like the hobbits though, he wouldn't have had much time to enjoy it! He was already about 260 years old by that point. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] poor old Gimli... __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

05-22-2003, 03:19 PM	#2
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	Did Gimli even go to Valinor? I thought he just went sailing with Legolas. Of course, I could be wrong...this happens alot... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

05-22-2003, 11:28 PM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Since no mortals were allowed to enter Valinor, I can only suppose that Gimli only made it as far as Tol Eressëa. Hey, if it was off-limits to Frodo, then there's no way that they'd let a dwarf in. [ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

05-23-2003, 03:21 AM	#9
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I'd always imagined, in my foolish romantic way, that he just wanted to see Galadriel again before he died. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

05-23-2003, 05:11 AM	#10
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I imaging that Gimli had already felt the oncoming of old age when Aragorn died. He would ahve know that Legolas was to sail west and I imagined Gimli asking Legolas to take him abord for only that purpose: See Galadriel again before he died. But well, old age lasted for about ten years in race of Dúrin. And I think ten years in Eressea are a very fine expierence. Wouldn't you give a lot for having a chance to see that island, even when it was only for short moment? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Respectfully Findegil

05-23-2003, 07:16 AM	#11
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	I would be surprised if he wasn't greeted with open arms by the Eldar and Valar. Surely the Noldor would greet him just because they loved Aule (me! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]). Vanyar would greet him because he has been allowed in, to do otherwise would be disrespecting the Vala and their wishes. Being wise and everything i don't think they would have anything against him even though he be rough and unlovely to look on. The Teleri, well i have no idea what the Teleri would think, maybe they would still hold a grudge but i would think that to be short lived esp after Galadriel gives a little talk on how brave Gimli is. My 2 cents [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

05-23-2003, 01:56 PM	#12
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	The thought of Gimli doing that for Galadriel is so sad! Tragic and heroic at the same time. Whats happening to me? lol

05-24-2003, 11:11 AM	#13
balrogman Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: that place with the stuff Posts: 102	hmmmm this is a good one...he probably wouldnt be allowed to go to valinor and stay at eressea, but im sure legolas would stay with him and galadrial probably visited! __________________ should i stay or should i go?

05-25-2003, 11:07 AM	#14
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	where does it say that Frodo was not allowed in Valinor? Or is this just opinion?

05-26-2003, 04:26 PM	#15
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think that Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli would have been allowed to go to Valinor. It was just the Elves involved in the Rebellion of the Noldor who were "condemned" to live in Tol Eressea, not in Valinor. Considering the personal sacrifices that those three made, I think it would be unfair to prevent them from coming to Valinor. After all, how would Frodo be healed? I'm sure that he must have needed a little shuteye in the gardens of Lorien. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

05-27-2003, 09:09 AM	#16
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Would Frodo or Gimli even want to go? If I were on an island in Paradise, would I even care what was at the end of the Eresea to Valinor fairy express?

12-20-2003, 10:09 PM	#17
Neithan the Wronged Guest Posts: n/a	I think Legolas would be just as out of place as Gimli. Remember that he is Moriquendi, and his ancestors never saw the light of the two trees. The ban of the Valar yet applies to him. I also think that in light of Gimli and Legolas', as well as the hobbits' heroic deeds in the War of the Ring, they would have been welcomed onto the white shores of Valinor with open arms, and then lived there in bliss unto the end of their days. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the exiled Noldor were not confined to Tol Eressea, but if they renounced their pride, they were likewise welcomed back into Valinor.

12-21-2003, 11:03 AM	#18
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	They'd be just as welcome as anyone else in Valinor. It's not an unfriendly palce you know... Galdriel, mroe than anything, would have been Gimli's reason for going. :'( Imagine the pampering he'd get from Aule though!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-23-2003, 08:30 AM	#20
purplefluffychainsaw Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a very cold place.... Posts: 162	The Vanya wouldn't have ever seen dwarves before. They might have heard of them but they never would have seen one. I bet Gimli would have got some attention from them [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And the Noldor... Well the ones that came back from Middle Earth might be glad to see a memoia from ME, but they might not like him for the same reason... __________________ Love, Drugs and Fairy Boys ~ SAM

12-24-2003, 02:56 PM	#21
Schamone Guest Posts: n/a	it says that any mortal who gets "across the sea" must still die but it says they die of their own free will so he would have died when he fancied it so he would have as much time to do what he wants (supposing he gets in)

12-24-2003, 04:38 PM	#22
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	We know that Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli "get in" to Valinor, because Tolkien tells us so. The only "iffy" Hobbit is Sam, but I'm pretty sure that he made it to Valinor. I see no reason why Legolas shouldn't be allowed into Valinor, Neithan. He did no wrong. In fact, he did a great thing, helping to heal the rift between the Elves and Dwarves. Since when does being Moriquendi exclude one from sailing to Valinor? This isn't pre-Civil War society, where having African blood made you an outcast in the eyes of the "pure-blood" Anglo-Americans. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-24-2003, 07:02 PM	#23
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Luthien, I remember that bit from the Letters, too. Though I don't believe I'd feel grudging if I were only allowed to stop at Tol Eressea - I doubt it was exactly an unpleasant place, and in some ways may have been more comfortable for mortals who weren't originally designed to be in that region at all. As for Gimli, I'm sure that the chance to see Galadriel would outweigh any other considerations. Though if he was set off at Tol Eressea - and he probably would be - I'd hope that at least one of the hobbits would still be around for companionship. They'd have to have lived an awfully long time beyond the normal hobbit-span, though. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-25-2003, 07:09 AM	#24
BaneManwe Guest Posts: n/a	Dont forget Aule could be tom bombadil so he wouldnt be in valinor to stick up for the dwarves

12-28-2003, 04:59 PM	#25
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Just as an interesting point: If you look in the appendices, you'll find that Gimli died the same year he set sail with Legolas. So it would appear that he only just got to see The Blessed Realm, maybe live there for a very short time, and then died. Sad, but in a way kind of beautiful, too. (You see from the dwarven family tree at the end of Appnedix A that Gimli died in Fourth Age 120, and in Appendix B it says that he set sail that same year). __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

12-28-2003, 05:04 PM	#26
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	That supports the common theory that Gimli set sail to Aman just to look upon Lady Galadriel's face, "one last time." It seems like something he would do. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-30-2003, 05:26 AM	#27
meggymoomoo Guest Posts: n/a	i think he would have been allowed there, he was given life to by eru and the elves would respect that, anyway frodo was allowed to go so why shouldnt gimli be allowed

12-30-2003, 11:32 AM	#28
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ah, but who's to say that for the sake of record keeping, sicne nobody in Middle-earth knew when he died in Valinor, that his death was recorded as the alst year he spent in Mortal Lands? About Tol Erresea...yes, it does seem anticlimatic, cruel even, to not let them go beyond. From my point of view...the Middle-earthans [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] , especially Elves, seem to have viewed it as being Paradise eqaul to Valinor. Wierd? __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-30-2003, 04:10 PM	#29
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	That's quite true. I don't think anyone had the time, resources, authority, or inclination to sail all the way to Aman and back just to find out if the Dwarf was dead or not. snickers __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.