What would the books be like if Tolkien had lived in this age.

[Helkahothion]

I still can't figure it out. Keep in mind that he would not have experienced the first world war. I think that he would use some modern words, but my imagination does not reach any further. What do you think?

[Yavanna228]

Interesting thought, Helka. I don't think that any major concepts in the books would be different, but maybe Tolkien would emphasize some themes more than others.
I don't really think that Tolkien himself would be drastically different in his personality and genius if he had lived in this age, seeing as it's more of what's inside of you that makes you who you are, although his missing WWI could definitely have made a difference in his perception of the world. Again, good thought, and maybe I will write more on it once I have had a chance to sit back and think about it for awhile. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Hope this post made some sort of sense! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peace

[piosenniel]

He did live in this age: born 1892 - died - 1973. He was a philologist, well versed in the use of languages. His writings, edited and carefully re-edited many times, reflect exactly the sort of language and phrasings he wished to use.

The Hobbit was published in 1937.
The Lord of the Rings was published in 1954 - 1955.

World War I began in 1914.
World War II began in 1939, lasted 'til 1945.
Viet Nam Conflict began in 1945, lasted 'til 1973.

*Perhaps you should define exactly what you mean by "this age".

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Helkahothion]

I more ment that what it would be like if he started writing Lotr in the year 2000 or so. Piosenniel. Of course I expected this answer from someone, but it was really bother me for quite some times, since I have been writing stories for my own, some things came into my head which where never possible in that time. Like some phrases like Cool or Groovy or stuff like that. Get my point?

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Tolkien was hardly up-to-date for even the 1940s or 1950s, he lived in the past and his ME. So I would imagine that they would be very similar, although some of his themes (Destruction of the countryside, war) are even more desperate right now. As for his writing style, I shouldn't think it would be any different either, they had slang back then which he didn't use.

[Lalaith]

Helkahothion, you don't think people spoke like in LotR during the 1940s, do you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Archaic: 1. Belonging to or characteristic of a much earlier period; ancient. 2.out of date, antiquated. 3. (of idiom, vocabulary etc) characteristic of an earlier period of a language and not in ordinary use.

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[drigel]

I think if he was born and raised in the post WWII era, he may not have the interest, or not have had the resources to research a lot of the Germanic mythos. That was a big no-no after the war due to its corruption and use by the nazis. Language academia would still be there, but at a much smaller size if compared to, the 20's and 30's.

[Helkahothion]

Thinking of this thread at school made me think of something weird:

What if Tolkien had not written the ME stories untill now, how far would fantasy be and what effect would it have had on the television development considering special effects and such?

Suilad,

Anuion

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Thats quite a strange thought. We get kind of used to the assumption that everything revolves around Tolkien- on Wheel of Time book jackets, for example it says: "With the Wheel of Time Jordan has come to dominate the world Tolkien began to reveal"
(Which goes to show the New York Times' ignorance of both!)
Anyway, it seems that maybe our fantasy would be different without Tolkien to lean on. But how true is that? Perhaps these books are really just similar to LOTR because they are all huge, wide ranging worlds based on similar source material (existing myths and legends).

Oh, and Drigel a lot of LOTR was written after/during WW2.

[drigel]

I realize that - I was just pointing out that if you were BORN and RAISED in the era AFTER the war, the cultural appetite would be considered to be leaning AWAY at just the stuff that JRRT so loved.

As for the fantasy genre if JRRT was writing them today - there would be none. People forget that other than science fiction and pulp fiction, that was it. It all arose post-JRRT. And my opinion is that 9/10s of the fantasy genre is either a cheap spin-off of JRRT, or a very sophmoric rip off of the man's work. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

my opinion is that 9/10s of the fantasy genre is either a cheap spin-off of JRRT, or a very sophmoric rip off of the man's work

Please don't think this is a personal attack on you (I love your posts- you're very knowledgable) but WHAT??????????????
How can you say that? How much other fantasy have you read? What evidence do you base this on? Have you considered the possibility that they might be drawing on similar sources? And, if I can make a Wheel of Time point, using the same names (which Robert Jordan does quite a lot) is not the same thing as copying an idea or a plotline or anything!

[drigel]

Hey TY - I am touched! I love this site and sorry - I dont mean to offend (but i got to admit its fun enticing people to gush forth their opinions on something i love such as this)! But hey, I take my Professor personally so my opinions here are definately from the heart! OK- here is my point. I think people forget that when the LOTR/HOBBIT was published... what like late 40's early 50's? So, at that time:

One could argue CS Lewis a contemporary author on something like the same "genre", although for me the Narnia stuff is allegory set in fables.

There were a few odd science fiction books that were "out there" enough to be considered possibly in the fantasy universe.

The pulp fiction stuff like Wierd Tales was close - Howard's Conan series, etc. Although most were really simply historical fiction with some bizarre twist to the plot.

No "fantasy" fans out there because there was no "fantasy" industry.

It wasnt until the baby boomers who (in the 60's, oh say about the 2nd or 3rd edition of the work) picked up JRRT's work, got inspired, put the bong down ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ), and began to write "fantasy novels" did the "fantasy" genre come into existence. Come on people - didnt the maps and the different races and the ungodly lengths and the inane dribbling ring a bell with anyone??? lol

I think the fantasy genre would be about the same even if Tolkien had only just now written the ME stories.
I notice that most of the fantasy I read has elements of various mythologys.
The idea of trolls, and dragons, and many other such creatures was already around when Tolkien wrote his stories. Of course Tolkien did give us a view on Elves as something other than short punny creatures that help Santa, and as far as I've ever been able to tell the Rangers are 100% his idea. But over all, in my opinion, fantasy is really just the authors own slant an various myths, legends, and old wives tales. And as such if Tolkien hadn't written his books, then someone else would have made the fantasy genre popular, it was only a matter of time.

But thats just my opinion,
-Nightwind

[HCIsland]

Personally, I find it really tough to imagine the fantasy genre without Tolkien. It certainly wouldn't be the same. Elves, dwarves ectera have been around for a long time, but what Tolkien did as far as creating an entire history is, as far as I know, perviously unprecedented. That idea of creating a universe for your characters to play in with it's own past and future has influenced so much fantasy literature and films.

As for the original topic of this thread, I don't think LotR would be all that different if it were published now. The characters are archtypes that existed long before Tolkien. I think the only change would be a little political correctness that would be insisted upon by the publishers; Black Numenoreans and the like. That's just a change in the way a few things are phrased and not a biggie in my opinion.

H.C.

H.C.

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

No "fantasy" fans out there because there was no "fantasy" industry.

In the modern sense maybe. But what are fairy tales? I would call Hans Anderson or the Brothers Grimm fantasy writers personally. So are the many people who have written Arthurian Legends or any other mythical/legendary writing- "Mort d'Arthur" perhaps?

[Helkahothion]

I think the only change would be a little political correctness that would be insisted upon by the publishers; Black Numenoreans and the like.

I have been thinking about that. Tolkien never had any black characters in his book. The only ones I know about are at the battle of Minas Tirith and they are evil barbarians. In this time, that would have been seen an insult by the black culture.(Black culture, is that the correct word without insulting? I never quite understand what is an insult and what not. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] So I mean no harm by saying that.)

Suilad,

Anuion

[HCIsland]

Tolkien never had any black characters in his book.

Are you sure of that? I'd have to dig up the quote but I think the Concerning Hobbits prologue describes hobbits as having a wide variety of skin tones. This actually makes sense considering that they, and the Men of this region as well, populated the area from a wide variety of places as the kingdoms of Arnor fell. I'm sure that there are old threads concerning this and I don't want to drift off topic, but I've always considered the region in and around The Shire to be quite multi-racial.

Ironically enough, Jackson wouldn't have been able to reflect this in his films (sorry for the film digression) as it would have been seen as patronizing political correctness that would have only served as an incredible distraction.

H.C.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Regarding skin tone....the Harfoot were said to have been nut brown.

Helkha,

An interesting question, and since I lived through those times, I do have some peronal opinions. As one of the most "ancient" of Downers who went to college in the late 60s, I do have keen memories of fantasy both before and after LotR. My dorm room had the old Ballantine poster up and I ran around in long skirts looking like a hobbit girl, baking bread, disliking technology, and having very strong feelings about what was happening to the trees and the earth. A lot of this was tied in to Tolkien. And believe me when I say that I was definitely not the only one to behave in this strange fashion.

There was no "fantasy" industry, but there were a few of us fans. What I mostly remember is reading fantasy as a child. This was around long before LotR. I poured over Edith Nesbit, Narnia, Alice in Wonderland, the Wizard of Oz, Wind in the Willows and also, of course, the Hobbit. (It's interesting how most of these are English authors.) We think of some of these books as classics rather than fantasy, but that's actually what they were.

As I became a teen and began searching the bookshops and media for the adult variety, it was sparse. There was some sci fiction that almost verged onto fantasy such as the Star Trek TV show which was much beloved by a large number of us who later went on to be Tolkien fans. There were also books by George McDonald, Lord Dunsany, James Branch Cabell, H. Rider Haggard, William Morris and, my own favorite, T.H. White. Some of these were published in the 50s while others were much older. Plus the sword and sorcery stuff like Conan. And of course there was comic books like Superman. (Don't laugh, many of us fantasy fans were "desperate" for whatever we could get!)

But, except for Superman and White and Conan and Haggard, many authors were often impossible to get hold of, even in the libraries. Their books were out of print. So, even though they existed, I couldn't read them!

What really helped the "industry" explode was the paperback book that became more common in the 50s. For the first time I would go to a bookstore and buy cheap reprints of Morris, McDonald, and things like the Mabinogion, plus the new stuff by Tolkien, and the younger writers who were just coming out. Believe me, I bought tons of such books. Some of them I still have, and some have fallen to pieces. And then the floodgates opened and many more people began writing....and the fantasy industry was born. The internet has also given it an enormous helping hand.

I don't know how to say this, but I think Tolkien was born and wrote at the "right" time. Any earlier, and there would have been no Ace or Ballentine publications, and his name would have been known among only a few quasi-academics. Remember that it was the American paperbacks that really spread Tolkien to a wider group of people! (I was too poor in college to afford hardback books.) Any later, and JRRT would not have had the influence that he did on the developing genre.

As a historian, I can say that all the right things came together at the right moment. But, as a fan, I'll go even beyond this. Just like JRRT says in his Letters: a man once asked him....you don't believe you did all of this on your own? And Tolkien had to admit he had stopped thinking that way long ago, and that, despite his unfitness for the task, he saw himself as some kind of "instrument".

Call it fate or providence, or something even stronger if you prefer, but, by the mid fifties, people were looking for something that echoed their own desire to go back to basic things about hope and fear, right and wrong, good and bad. Our world is so complicated.....there is a whole lot of grey, but something resonates when we see the more clear cut choices that Aragorn and Frodo made, and we want to believe we would have made these same choices, if confronted with the same situation.

[Helkahothion]

Wow. Even though he was an instrument, he was a very powerfull one. It is kindof like the ring of power. Sauron(fantasy) was very powerfull, but without the ring (Tolkien) It would have never grown that big. I never knew you where that "old" Child. I thought you where a lot younger. Weird huh? Anyway, your posts only proves that fantasy would have been nowhere without Tolkien right now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Suilad,

Anuion

[HCIsland]

Thank you, Child. That was a great post.

H.C.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I think the only change would be a little political correctness that would be insisted upon by the publishers; Black Numenoreans and the like.

(It's strange (or maybe not) that PJ didn't take this into account. A lot of my friends were upset that the men going through the gates of Mordor looked Arabic, i.e. Muslim.)

Tolkien would most likely have justified what he wrote ( I think he did) by saying that it was simply the point of view of the Hobbits, representing Dark Ages Britons. I read somewhere that the West represented mystery and a land you couldn't get to because of the hugeness of the Atlantic Ocean. The North was simply coldness. The East was the way of danger because of Viking Raids, and South was the land of the great Empires- depending on your time period Greek, Roman, Byzantine. The Romans especially were former masters of England like the Kings of Gondor and Arnor used to rule the Shire. Apart from that it was a simple fact that other people may have been seen as Heathens, barbarians or whatever. Anyway, my point was that I doubt Tolkien would have been willing to change his masterpiece to such an extent, though it might have been hard to get it published. In fact I think a lot of what Tolkien wrote would have been difficult to get past todays publishers. ("You want me to publish a book about how cities are bad? About waist high little men? Are you kidding me?") It's a horrible thought, but we might never have got LOTR AT ALL. Aaargh!

So here's a question: Would Tolkien have compromised his vision to get published?

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Helkahothion]

Difficult. I can't speak for Tolkien. But I just think what I should do: Hell no.

In that age, people did not care much about that, since the most countries where not as multi-cultural and the trouble with the Arabic people was not there. So in that time, he would have never done it. But than we have current time. The war in Irak and the assasinations and stuff. I don't think he would not do it either, but if you ask me if that would mean he was a biggot: No way.

In that day, England was mostly white. I think that if he had lived in the current time, he would have encountered more people of foreign cultures and then he might have made the kins also of different skin color. But that is just a guess. But to get back to Lyra's question: No.

Suilad,

Anuion

[Child of the 7th Age]

Would Tolkien have compromised his vision to get published.

Actually, we have a clear cut answer to that. Some years prior to the war, a German publisher wanted to put out an edition of The Hobbit. This was in the bad days when racial tensions were building in Germany.

The publisher insisted that Tolkien tell him whether or not he was "Aryan". Tolkien wrote back and basically said this: What you are really asking me is whether I am Jewish. I regret to say that I have no Jewish relatives, although I have many Jewish friends.

Moreoever, he refused to fill out the Aryan declaration, even though it was a requirement.

So we have a pretty good idea what Tolkien would do when faced with racial prejudice. He definitely set his ideals before his personal self interest.

BTW, thanks for the nice comments on my earlier post! And, Helkha, I am not all that ancient! (Cami hobbles off down the road...)

sharon

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Helkahothion]

Moreoever, he refused to fill out the Aryan declaration, even though it was a requirement.

So actualy, he went against the German system. Did he life in Germany at the time? Or was he save from harm?

Suilad,

Anuion

[drigel]

Ive been enjoying this thread even though its starting to get off track a little...

Excellent point Lyra - fairy tales are in the same realm. I would even grant (having picked up this discussion with the local compadres last weekend)Disney having a hard lock (at the time) on the "fantasy" genre at the time - much to JRRT's disgust. And yea, ok I read the stuff too - not as much as sci-fi, but I do. And the good stuff is really pretty good.

Your bringing up Mort d'Arthur makes me think about my first post, which was pretty black and white (pardon the pun), and my friends made me realize that there is a lot of grey area to the fantasy universe. Childs post is succinct to the factors as well - ty for that post! I would still say that JRRT's style of writing spawned a huge (if not the biggest) bubble in the fantasy universe as it is today.

As far as race goes - I just would bring up the point that ME is based on an Anglo-Saxon mythos. ME is definitively derived from western Europe. I think most (all?) myths from any race is centered around the culture from whence it came. A natural assumption for me is that a western European myth would primarily have white characters - duh. Whether JRRT wrote it now or then, the race mix would be the same. Its not racism or xenophia, its merely a unique look and a particular peoples legends and myths. An informative look on his views of race (which reflect of course, not only his opinions but his time) comes in the Letters.

[Lady Alasse]

Although C.S. Lewis has been mentioned, I don't think anyone mentioned his space trilogy. It's not exactly fantasy, but It is pretty close. It was written right around the time Tolkein wrote LOTR wasn't it?
I think that there would still be fantasy and Science fiction, but I don't think it would be as well written.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

So we have a pretty good idea what Tolkien would do when faced with racial prejudice. He definitely set his ideals before his personal self interest.

Oh, I didn't mean it like that! I meant would he change it if a publisher said to him: "Too many poems. Cut a few and we've got a deal" or something like that.

[Helkahothion]

If somebody said that, Tolkien would have just walked away I think. The lord of the rings was his treasure and no one was going to change it. I think it had to take a really strong aregument to take that thing trough the edit machine. So my question is:

On what condition would Tolkien have edited?

Suilad,

Anuion

[Finwe]

I don't think that Tolkien would have edited anything for anyone except himself. In the Letters, he has written quite a few times, "complaining" about all the revisions that his editors were trying to make. He hated revisions, and if confronted with an issue of political correctness, he would have just told the world that he didn't mean to insult anyone, because he didn't.
As for the whole Arabic/Muslim thing in PJ's The Two Towers, it was done on purpose. The costume designers have been quoted as saying that they based the costumes for the Easterlings and Haradrim on the medieval Saracens. They didn't want ot insult anyone, and I don't think they were. Is imitating clothes an insult? If it is, then I think that all of Hollywood should be considered insulted, considering the lengths that some people go to to imitate celebrities' wardrobes.

[Samwise Gamgee]

Since most of Tolkeins influence was from ancient writings like beowulf and nordic myth - the age probably wouldn't do much to change him