Farmer Maggot and Tom Bombadil

[littlemanpoet]

The two never meet in The Fellowship of the Ring, but anybody who has read the two poems, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", know that there are a couple lines in the second poem about Tom and old Farmer Maggot sitting down and having a little talk.....

What do you suppose Tom said to Maggot? Maggot to Tom? When do you suppose this little conversation took place? Before Frodo and company came by? After? I realize this is pure speculation, but thought it'd be fun.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo littlemanpoet:

* waves a friendly greeting *

I would deem conversation took place between Old Tom and Farmer Maggot before Frodo and company arrived.

As for Tom, according to the LOTR chapter "In the House of Tom Bombadil,"

... he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined. 'There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones, and both his eyes are open,' said Tom.

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[lathspell]

You took the words and the quote right out of my mouth, my good fellow-Gandalf. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

[littlemanpoet]

Greetings and well met, Gandalf the Gray and lathspell
- LMP removes bard's cap with a friendly flourish and replaces -

To quote from the professor himself:

When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill and cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.

Who said which to whom, and what was said?
Information from the Barrow-downs would come from Tom; tales from the Bree and from the Tower Hills would be from Maggot, because he's in touch with Hobbit society. Walkings and ridings: my guess is that this is told to Tom by Maggot. Here's why. Maggot is in his wagon, driving his horses back home and happens upon Tom. Maggot gives him a ride back to Maggot's farm. This is during the daytime. I figure it's the day after Maggot has helped Frodo and company, and witnessed the run in with the Black Rider. Thus he tells Tom of "walkings and ridings". "Queer tales from Bree" could be stuff about the strange southerners. Tall watchers by the Ford would be the Rangers. Shadows on the Marches - that's probably the Black Riders? What's also interesting is that Tom in his hurry leaves the boat behind that he has come down the Withywindle in, and a swan, otters, and a bird bring it back (except for the oars). So I think Tom hurried back so that he could meet up with Frodo and company, because he knew they intended to go through the Old Forest, and knew that Old Man Willow would draw them to him. And sure enough, there comes Tom, dancing and stomping down the way along the Withywindle, in the nick of time to save them from Old Man Willow. Any problems with this little theory? Any further explications? Let's hear them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail and well met, lathspell. * bows a greeting * An honor to share similar thoughts with you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Return greetings, littlemanpoet:

I could say the same for you. You ask a question, then proceed straightaway to answer it much as I would. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Though you leave me with one question. Is it sooth then that Tom visited the Maggot farmhouse? I'd assumed that Tom always stayed within the boundaries of his own land, and somehow can't picture a Hobbit farmhouse within Bombadil territory. It could be there's something I'm missing here, haven't taken into account, or am applying too stringently. * strokes his beard thoughtfully at the puzzle *

Gandalf the Grey

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Diamond18]

*bows, curtsies, and does a pas de chat for good measure*

It was my understanding from the introduction to "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" that Tolkien would have us believe the poem you are referring to was written before the WofR. I am sorry I cannot quote it, since I do not own a copy...but I believe he said that the poem was of Buckland origin, written by hobbits who knew little of Tom Bombadil's hidden powers, and viewed him much as the hobbits of Hobbiton viewed Gandalf: as a funny old man.

Anyone who owns this book, would you be interested in confirming what I have said?

*exits with a bow, a curtsie, and pas de bourrée*

[Morquesse]

Greetings, littlemanpoet, Gandalf_theGrey and lathspell. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I can only find one problem with your theory, lmp: you said that perhaps Tom knew they were coming and that they would be lead to Old Man Willow and that he would come along to free them, but here's the problem: Tom said to the hobbits in his house that he did not hear their cries, and it was 'chance, if chance you call it' that he came just at the right time. So I'm guessing that he did not know that they were coming, and just happen to come at the right moment.
Just a guess,
~M

Edit: It seems that the adventures of Tom did happen before tWotR, but I will have to check and see.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Morquesse ]

[littlemanpoet]

If it's supposed to have been written before the War, then some hobbit poet had amazing foretelling powers and was unique, knowing about Ringwraiths and Rangers.

Tom's words 'chance, if chance you call it' doesn't seem to quite explode my little theory, for it was 'chance, if chance you call it' that he decided to go boating the first place...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

My understanding was that the Rangers had been watching the borders of the Shire for quite some time before the War of the Ring began in earnest. Also "shadows on the marches" could simply mean that the power of Sauron was waxing again, that an old darkness was returning to Eriador: it doesn't have to mean the Nazgûl.
Maybe the Bucklanders heard dark rumours from Bree, which the author of the poem would have written into his work.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Both book sources sound to me like they're describing a longer friendship between the two. I don't see those conversations as being a one-time occurrence, but a long-term exchange of information. That would include the specific incident in LotR, but certainly not exclude others that happened before then.

[Birdland]

"Old Maggot is a shrewd fellow," said Merry. "A lot goes on behind his round face that does not come out in his talk. I've heard that he used to go into the Old Forest at one time, and he has the reputation of knowing a good many strange things." - Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 5, "A Conspiracy Unmasked"

There you are, LMP. That supports your theory that Maggot may have relayed lots of info to old Bombadil. I suppose it is possible that Maggot could have ventured into the Old Forest after his meeting with Frodo and company and let Tom know that Hobbits were on the way, and to keep a look out for them.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Telchar]

Just my thought Estelyn! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] - the poem might have been written after WoTR, describing the nature of the relationship between Tom and Maggott.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I believe the poem you are referring to is "Bombadil Goes Boating". This is the second poem in the general collection entitled The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Tolkien says in his introduction that the collection as a whole is "mainly concerned with legends and jests of the Shire at the end of the Third Age, that appear to have been made by Hobbits, especially by Bilbo and his friends, or their immediate descendents."

There is nothing in the introduction of the particular poem under discussion which contradicts this dating. Indeed, as can be seen below, the poem is specifically said to be after Frodo's visit to Bombadil. The origin of the first and second poems, both of which discuss Bombadil, is described in this way:

Nos. 1 and 2 evidently come from the Buckland. They show more knowledge of that country, and of the Dingle, the wooded valley of the Withywindle, than any Hobbits west of the Marish were likely to possess. They also show that the Bucklanders knew Bombadil, though no doubt, they had as little understanding of his powers as the Shire-folk had of Gandalf's: both were regarded as benevolent persons, mysterious perhaps and unpredictable but nonetheless comic. No. 1 (i.e. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil) is the earlier piece, and is made up of various hobbit-versions of legends concerning Bombadil. No. 2 (i.e. Bombadil Goes Boating) uses similar traditions, though Tom's raillery is here turned in jest upon his friends, who treat it with amusement (tinged with fear); but it was probably composed much later and after the visit of Frodo and his companions to the house of Bombadil.

I certainly think there is truth in the way you have described the conversations between Maggot and Bombadil. As Bird suggests, the LotR itself confirms their relationship. But I wonder, Littlemanpoet, if we can pin things down quite as precisely as you've indicated, at least in seeing the poem as, word-for-word, actual "historical" data. To what degree were these poems a recording of what happened during the LotR, and how much was hobbit hindsight, incorporating various legends and tales loosely floating about Buckland and the Shire?

Tolkien, in general, took a less than reverent attitude toward the poems in the volume. They were considered part of the Redbook but only in the widest sense. Tolkien noted that some are in "loose leafs, while some are written carelessly in margins and blank spaces." Most of the latter were described as "nonsense, now often unintelligible, even when legible, or half-remembered fragments." Even the more authoritative ones, probably including the two Bombadil poems, appear "in various hands, and were probably written down from oral tradition."

With this stress on "oral tradition", the author is suggesting a different level of believability from that of the Red Book itself which the reader is to take as carefully recorded history. As anyone who's done oral history interviews knows, what one person remembers and what another remembers are often quite different! And things have a way of creeping into oral narratives which are closer to fiction than fact. It may, for example, have been easier to see a few things in hindsight, which might or might not have been so clear at the time. I find the poems delightful, but I take them with a grain of salt.

A similar uncertainty, for example, hangs over the more somber Frodo's dream in this same collection. There has been considerable debate and discussion over what the poem represents. We just can't be sure in any kind of an "historical" context. And I would say the same for the Bombadil poems.

Perhaps the importance of these poems, and the others, is not that they show us any literal interpretation of what happened during the LotR, but rather they tell us about the hobbits who came after the quest and heard the tales. We learn something about what these hobbits felt was important as they pick and glean from the tales in the Shire and decide what to pass on. In this context, it's not at all surprising that they would remember Maggot, one of their own, with dearness and pass on that part of the lore, and perhaps forget other parts which had more to do with Men or Elves! How interesting it is to me that the stay-at-home Maggot captures their attention rather than the exploits of Frodo or Sam! There is not a single poem in the collection outlining any part of the Ring quest, except for the strange and sad "Frodo's Dreme" which, on some level, is an indication of failure.

Another interesting point to me, Gandalf, is that the hobbits felt a strong enough attachment to Bombadil that he indeed paid a visit to Maggot's house in "Bombadil Goes Boating". And this visit is even complete with the famed politeness and hospitality for which hobbits were generally known:

They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping, Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping. Star shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted; fire in he kitched burned to welcome the benighted. Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsey. his wife brought tankards for those that might be thirsty. Songs they had and merry tales, the supping and the dancing; Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing. Tom did a hornpipe when he was no quaffing, daughters did the Springle-ring, goodwife did the laughing.

I think this says as much about hobbit society and values as it does about the actual events of the age.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Or maybe since nobody knows where hobbits came from, nor Bombadillo and Goldberry, Old Tom and Goldberry gave life to the Hobbits. Tom was a short and stout little fellow. Maybe Maggot is directly of his lineage, explaining their friendship and close proximity. Who knows how people are connected in Middle Earth.

[littlemanpoet]

Keeper of Dol Guldur: <erk!> do ya think maybe? Not me.

Child: an insightful post, as usual. I guess the whimsical side of me likes to think that Tom and Maggot had their heads together while Frodo and friends wandered into the Old Forest, and as so far none can say me nay with all that great a store of evidence, I'll hold onto my little fantasy and quaff a few while I stomp about.

[Diamond18]

...it was probably composed much later and after the visit of Frodo and his companions to the house of Bombadil.

Well, that just further exemplifies my amazing talent for remembing Tolkien's words as the exact opposite of what they actually were! Thank you for putting me straight, there.

*exits with a pas de bourée but trips and falls flat on her face — chuckles emanate from the shadowy corners of the forum*

[Birdland]

Or maybe since nobody knows where hobbits came from, nor Bombadillo and Goldberry, Old Tom and Goldberry gave life to the Hobbits.

K.D.G. - Hey, you may be on to something. Just as Aulë created the dwarves, maybe ol' Tom and Goldberry created the Hobbits.

Which would mean that T&G were Ainur. Two riddles solved in one stroke!

Hmmmm...it would also mean that Frodo had a serious Oedipus Complex goin' on with Goldberry.

[Osse]

We do know where hobbits came from, and their genetic origins...for an in depth idea, it is in the Prologue of FOTR.
Sorry to quell such a raring theory, but unfortunately Tolkien has written the Hobbits early history and it dosen't hold much room for Tom and Goldberry to be racing around creating the hobbits...though don't rule it out because anything is possible.

Holds trident up in farewell.

[Lord of Angmar]

Which would mean that T&G were Ainur. Two riddles solved in one stroke!

Ainur cannot reproduce, so I am afraid that this theory is flawed.

As for Bombadil creating hobbits, I highly doubt it. Bombadil is (obviousl) immortal, as, it can be assumed, is Goldberry. Hobbits are mortal, and while Tom does have quite a connection with life and the natural world, I personally cannot conceive of him creating a race, as did Aule. The strength for the creation of an entire species does not seem in him, whatever other powers he may have.

[Osse]

Hear Hear! I'm not sure who it was who was implying the hobbits were T&G's offspring though...

Regarding when and where Maggot and Tom met, i'd say they had been friends (at least associates) for a long time prior to the War of the Ring. Maggot went into the old forest to see Bombadil, because as Tom himself said something along the lines of; "I stay within the boundaries of my realm..." tom wouldn't have gone to see Maggot.

Osse

[Lord of Angmar]

I too believe that Farmer Maggot met Bombadil on one of his visits to the Old Forest well before the Lord of the Rings, perhaps under similar circumstances as Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin found themselves at their first meeting with Tom. This is all purely conjectural. I always found the link between Maggot and Bombadil quite interesting, and the fact that Bombadil had so much respect for the old farmer even more so.

Or maybe since nobody knows where hobbits came from, nor Bombadillo and Goldberry, Old Tom and Goldberry gave life to the Hobbits.

--Keeper of Dol Guldur

[Keeper of Dol Guldur] - Hey, you may be on to something. Just as Aulë created the dwarves, maybe ol' Tom and Goldberry created the Hobbits.

Which would mean that T&G were Ainur. Two riddles solved in one stroke!

--Birdland

Just so you know wo it was who put forth this interesting (and to my knowledge completely original) idea, Osse. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Dininziliel]

I have a question that is related, albeit a side or subtopic--I had to sieze the opportunity to ask one of those little questions that pops up to nag the noggin from time to time.

Why would Tolkien have given the good farmer of crops worth coveting a name that is so oft associated with rotten meat? And, given his association with Tom, well ... mayhaps my sensibilities are a tad sensitive, but, "Bombadil and Maggot"?

Again, this wasn't worth a whole new topic, so I thought I would see if it fit well enough here to tease someone into enlightening me!

[Lord of Angmar]

I think the aesthetic appeal of Farmer Maggot's name is that it has an earthy appeal; it sounds rough and somewhat uncouth (like the fields he tills), and yet not sinister or evil. As you may have noticed [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] , all hobbits have rather strange last names, but I believe that they are constructed in such a way as to sound quite rural (in the old English sense of the world) and simple. Maggot, Boffins, Bolger, etc. are good examples, because while they may sound strange, they give a distinct feel to the hobbits.