Experimental Planning Thread: The Princess Guard

[Child of the 7th Age]

Shire posters,

Background

Several weeks ago, I mentioned I would like to see a Shire RPG which featured realistic female characters from Middle-earth. The game would not include shield-maidens or quasi-magical Elves, but would focus on other types of women who normally don't appear in our RPGs.

I even expressed the hope that some of our male posters would take up the challenge of developing and using a female persona. It is not unusual for women to play male characters, but the reverse is still uncommon.

Three Shire posters immediately took me up on developing a suitable storyline: Manardariel, Nurumaiel, and Sophia the Thunder Mistress. Manardariel submitted several story seeds. Some were light hearted, some somber; some focused on poor refugees and others on privileged members of the ruling class. They decided to adopt the following seed.

The Princess Guard - 2976 TA - Finduilas of Dol Amroth is to marry Denethor, the future Steward of Dol Amroth. A group of girls/women (ladies-in-waiting, maids etc.) is to come to Minas Tirith with her. There, they are shocked by the cold, masculine Court Ecthelion and Denethor are keeping. The game would describe how they manage to organize parties and bring some more life into the Citadel.

This can hopefully be the foundation of a witty, humorous game which explores the relations between men and women in the court of Minas Tirith. Manardarial, Nurumaiel, and Sophia will submit the proposal and act as co-founders for the RPG.

This discussion thread has been set up to help them develop their ideas. At the end of the planning process, they will fill out the standard games worksheet and submit it to Piosenniel, Shire Mod, for editing and hopefully eventual approval.

Requirements for Participating in this Planning Process

Anyone who is interested in this game, or wants to learn how RPGs are developed, is welcome to follow along with the thread. However, in order to post on this thread and actively contribute to the planning process, you must meet the following criteria:

1. You must have participated in at least one game in the Downs.

2. You must put a small note on this thread, explaining why you'd like to help with the planning. One of the founders will get back to you, either on the thread or by pm and grant or withold permission for your request.

Please note that I will be quite ruthless with folk who simply set down their ideas without first requesting permission from the founders. Such posts will be immediately deleted. So make sure and ask Nuru, Manardariel, or Sophia first, so I don't have to wear out my delete pen!

Historical Background

Here are a few pertinent historical facts which may prove useful to your planning. These come from the appendices of LotR.

Ecthelion II was the son of Steward Turgon, and was a wise and foresightful Man. He put his efforts into strengthening his realm against the approaching danger of Sauron, who had openly revealed himself in the last years of Turgon's Stewardship. He was aided in this work by Gandalf, and by a mysterious stranger named 'Thorongil', who was later known to be none other than Aragorn. It was Throngil who constantly urged Ecthelion to take a stand against the rebels in Umbar. In 2980, just four years after this story takes place, Thorongil finally got permission from the Steward to go ahead and destroyed most of the Corsair ships with little loss of life. After this Aragorn disappeared, never having set foot in Minis Tirith.

Tolkien implies that Ecthelion's son Denethor viewed Thorongil as his rival and was pleased to see him leave. Moreover, Denethor had a much more negative attitude towards Gandalf. It is said that, even before becoming steward, Denethor learned of Gandalf's plans to restore the Heir of Isildur to the throne, and this accounts for his lifelong distrust of both the wizard and Aragorn.

In 2984, Ecthelion died and was succeeded as Steward by Denthor, who ruled Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring. Denethor's later history and eventual suicide is well known from the LotR.

Finduilas of Dol Amrothwas born in 2950 TA, and married Denethor in 2976, the year this game takes place. She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart who died when she will still young, just twelve years after her marriage. She was the mother of Boromir and Farimir, characters well known to us from LotR. Tolkien states the following:

Denethor loved her, in his fashion, more dearly than any other, unless it was the elder of the sons that she bore him. But it seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror, and she turned her eyes ever south to the seas that she missed.

With her passing in 2988, Denethor became increasingly depressed and withdrawn.

[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Post of Child of the 7th Age


Game Founders,

Just a few qustions and ideas to get you started..... Many more will arise in the course of your talks.

First, will the action of the story take place before or after the actual wedding to Denethor?

Also, one of the things you'll need to develop is a clear-cut ending to the game. One of the thing our worksheet requires is to have a clear goal in mind so you know when the game is over.

You're obviously going to have some kind of conflict between the men and the women, with the men not understanding what the women are asking for and why. The men will resist and have to be won over gradually. But what is your ending going to be, the goal to which you're striving?

Is there some kind of a crisis or problem in Gondor where these feminine skills can be employed and lead up to a defined ending, perhaps even partially in the context of a party? Perhaps spying and untangling some diplomatic intrigue, with the help of friends and servants?

It's interesting to me that Finduilas lived near the sea and loved it, and that the decision to attack the Corsair fleet came just four years after her arrival at court. I almost wonder if she had some subtle hand in influencing her father-in-law's attitudes. Is it remotely possible that she had met and spoken with Aragorn in Pelargir perhaps before her marriage? You may or may not want to go in this direction.

When Pio and I discussed the possible intrigue and spying, she noted the following, "The women and their servants would have their own unique networking setup that could prove quite useful in ferreting out important tidbits of information. Also what to a man might seem unimportant information, to a woman used to reading other subtle signs, it might speak volumes."


Let your thoughts range as far afield as you want, but you will need a defined ending of some kind and probably some trace of wider conflict or intrigue.

Good luck and have fun! I'll drop in to see how things are going.

Cami

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

This is the form you will use to submit your Game proposal to me. Please read it carefully and fill out each section completely.
_____________________________________________

SHIRE GAME WORK SHEET

Please read carefully and follow all information in The Red Book of Westmarch and in Seed Stories about gaming in the Shire before filling out this form. Please be exact in your answers.

Answer in full sentences and complete paragraphs wherever appropriate so that the Reviewers will have as complete an idea as possible of your vision of the game. Reviewers for the Games are Piosenniel (Pio) and Child of the 7th Age (Sharon).

Title:

Basic Storyline:

The purpose of the story is to:

This means we will know the story is over when:

Starting Location:

Likely destination:

Timeframes:

This game takes place in the ____Age at around year _______.

The storyline itself or plot covers _____ days, weeks, months.

This game requires a time commitment of _____ from me, the game owner and from the major players.

Characters: – be specific as to type (eg., Lothlorien Elves, not just Elves, if that’s what you need; or any other characters types from specific regions) and please indicate the number of each type you will need.

Please note: Race – number needed – and gender needed

Main character types are:

Secondary character types likely are:

Character types which would not belong:

The game owner will play ____ character(s). Fill out the Character Description Form completely for your character.

The first post for the game:
(This should be several paragraphs long, enough to give gamers a solid sense of what the game is about and who might be involved. It should draw both readers and potential gamers into the game.)

Other information of special interest that you would like to include:

Do you want first posts for the game when the players submit their characters on the discussion thread? - YES/NO

Please note that this will mean NO character descriptions will be accepted without First Posts accompanying them. All character descriptions posted without the required First Post will be sent back to their writers.
_____________________________________________


Proposer/Owner (Please use your Barrow Downs ID):

RPGs at the Barrow Downs I have participated in are the following (if you have not, explain where you have developed your RPG skills):

Contact via PM – You must have your ability to receive Private Messages enabled in order to run a Game. We need to be able to contact you.

[piosenniel]

This is the form you will use to create your characters for submission:

For your character please include:

NAME:

AGE:

RACE:

GENDER:

WEAPONS (No magical, super-hero, mithril weapons. Just good solid Middle-earth weapons and armor only that is appropriate to the race of the character and the time period.):

APPEARANCE:

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: (No half-Elven characters. No mixed-type characters. No super-heroes. No assassins. No one all powerful, martial arts proficient, or having any magical traits. Just regular characters with normal abilities for their races only):

HISTORY:

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Maikafanawen has Pm'ed me about this thread, so she's all set to post here as soon as she likes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sophia

[Nurumaiel]

Pio, those are some interesting questions. I would answer them myself except that the answers to them are quite unknown to me. Manardariel should be able to answer them properly when she comes along.

I'm mainly posting to let everyone know that I'm here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Yes, Cami [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], those are really neat questions. This is the one that caught my eye first.

Is there some kind of a crisis or problem in Gondor where these feminine skills can be employed and lead up to a defined ending, perhaps even partially in the context of a party? Perhaps spying and untangling some diplomatic intrigue, with the help of friends and servants?

Has anyone read or seen the musical "The Scarlet Pimpernel"? It's hardly Tolkien, but the whole plot hinges around a scene at a masqued ball where Marguerite, the heroine does some hefty spy work. It's especially dramatic in the play version. This question brought that scene to mind. I think it would be really fun to set up this kind of conflict in an RPG...

Sophia

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Whoops, everyone. I goofed.

Those particular questions aren't from Pio. They're from me (Child, Cami). I stuck my post into Pio's vacant box, and forgot to put my name at the top. Pio and I did, however, discuss the general topic, and she was also thinking along these same lines.

I've run back and pasted my name over the post so no one else will be confused.

BTW, there's no right or wrong answer here. It's just how you decide to develop your story idea. You can stick your neck out beyond what Tolkien actually says as long as it doesn't blatantly contradict what we know to be true about Middle-earth.

It just strikes me that there is a lot of intrigue going on at the court. Denethor doesn't like Aragorn or Gandalf, and his dad does. For years, Ecthelion resisted Aragorn's advice to attack the Corsair fleet. Then four years after Finduilas comes to court, he reverses his position.

Maybe, just maybe, she had something to do with this reversal of policy. Of course, Tolkien himself never said this. But neither did he tell us why Ecthelion changed his mind. If Finduilas was doing this kind of thing, she had to be very skilled and very discreet. Her husband loved her in his own fashion and he never suspected her of anything like this, which would actually go against his own views.

And I agree with Sophia. Whatever you decide on as an ending, you could use intrigue and spying on the part of the women similar to that portrayed in The Scarlet Pimpernel. In traditional societies, where women are often excluded from official positions of authority, they often used these tactics to make what inroads they could.

Cami

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Point of clarification:

Sophia mentioned that my initial introduction was not clear as to whether or not posters could put their requests to the founders on this thread and ask to join in the planning.

The answer to that is yes. As long as you've played in a game, you may do a post on this thread asking the game founders if you can join in the discussion.

I promise not to delete such requests. (I'm not that mean!) When I mentioned deleting posts, I meant people who joined in the discussion without first petitioning the founders.

Thanks, Sophia, for mentioning about Makaifanawen. It helps to put the names of approved posters down in the thread, so I don't erase someone you want to be here!

Cami

[Nurumaiel]

It seems what Manardariel was planning was to have the women want to have a party to liven the place up (and celebrate the wedding?), and the men not wanting to do it. Of course we'll have to wait for her to clarify.

[Manardariel]

Wow, lots of stuff happening here! Ok, too get some suff clear. Thanks for the questions Cami, it´s good to get some inspiration. I liked your idea about the "Femine netrwork" you expressed... that sounded interesting!

Is there some kind of a crisis or pro1blem in Gondor where these feminine skills can be employed and lead up to a defined ending, perhaps even partially in the context of a party? Perhaps spying and untangling some diplomatic intrigue, with the help of friends and servants?

Hmm.. it´s wartime, so the city is probably unresting and stuff. Maybe you could add something like that.. wartime usually comes in hand with a famine or something... I´ll think of somerthing.

MORE LATER!

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I would really like to join in with planning this! Recently I was thinking I'd love to do an RPG which doesn't involve some sort of fighting. Not that I don't love those too, but this sounds really different and original. I've played a variety of female characters, erm, I'm not quite sure what else to say to convince you!

[Manardariel]

Welcoem aboard, Lyra. Thanks for posting that "genuine example" how a proposal should look. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Oh, and if you haven´t played in an RPG with any of the game-founders yet (Nurumariel, Sophia Thunder-Mistress or me), it may be helpfull to include a reference what game you played in. Thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Now, to buisiness.

Clear- cut confict.
Has anyone read The Last great Dance on Earth, about Josephine and Napoleon? Not the most Tolkien- true reference, but it´s quite funny how the author descibes Napoleon´s dislie of parties. We could give Denethor that character trait, maybe even a strong dislike of company. (He was kinda reputant to other peopler in LotR), so maybe that would be a possible confict, especially if his wife is really pro- entertaining.

I´m not sure if the whole Pelagir-thingy is a good idea. I guess we´re trying to make this a bit more houmerous than other RPGs, so maybe that would get to political.. any opinions?

[Carlas]

I'd also like to help with planning this RPG! So far, I have only played male characters, and I think it's about time I tryed playing my proper sex! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Also, this game looks really interesting and lots of fun!!!

Oh, and I've played in The Road to Erebor, Quest for the Ainereg, and am in the middle of Truth in a Dark Place!

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Carlas ]

[Durelin]

I immediately jumped to this thread when I saw it. I had seen Cami the mighty mod's suggestion in the newcomers thread (right?) and was really excited about the fact that you might actual do something with that idea. Now you have a plot and it is exquisite. It may sound like I am critiquing a food, but I'm a bit at a loss for words. I would just like to help out with this in any way I can, or if you have too many people for that, I hope I can be moral support at least! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I, like Carlas, haven't gotten the chance to play someone of my own sex. I will Friday, but she's evil...so...doesn't really count. I have never been too fond of shield maidens, and I like having a variety...so it'd be great to play a female. Plus, she isn't going to be a super warrior ranger woodsman woman. Plus, it works with courtly manners and intrigue and all that...that will be awesome. I will do anything to help, and I mean anything. Summer vacation is almost here for me (YAY!) so I'll be wanting something to do! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll take any old job, any lowly little job or I'll just help everyone think...

Oh, yeah, I've played in Wolf Run RPG, Search for the Lost Messenger RPG, The Quest for the Ainereg RPG, and I am currently in Truth in a Dark Place RPG, and I will be starting my own RPG (plot of my own creation! heh, heh!): Dark Seduction. Right...thankyou for your time.

~DUR!!~

[Manardariel]

Durelin and Carlas,

Welcome! Ok, anyone, do yu have some ideas? Nuru? Sophia? I´m in school and running out of thoughts!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Goal, part2
Nuru and me were thinking about the women wanting to organize this really big party, like with a ball and everything... so with Cami´s suggestion.. listen to this. There´s a suspecion going on that two people calling themselves "Friends from Dol Amroth" are actually spies of Mordor. Finduilas and her ladies are especially suspicious because they don´t know the guys, even though they say they´re "Frm Dol Amroth". So they use a party to figure some stuff out.. any good?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Manardariel,

Regarding the "Friends of Dol Amroth". That's a really good idea!

Maybe these agents claim to be an association promoting trade between Dol Amroth and all the cities along the Bay of Belefas. (That covers a lot of territory stretching west and south, all the way down to Harad and Umbar where the Corairs are.)

Of course, all this is a ruse. Their real purpose would be spying and getting information on military plans and forces for their home countries which are secretly becoming allies of Sauron. Four years from now Throngil destroys the Corsair fleet. Maybe that couldn't have happened unless Gondor first managed to ferret out these baddies from the court and destroy their pipeline of information.

Hey, do you want the spies to be the official male representatives of the association, or their wives who are the "real" gatherers of secrets behind the scenes?? That way, you could work in more women's role. Plus, it would make sense that Finduilas would become suspicious as she involves the different women who've come to court on planning these parties. These women friends of Dol Amroth could even claim to be sympathetic to Finduilas' goal of lightening things up and going against the fuddy-duddy men. But we know their real goal!

To keep the story light, you probably wouldn't want to get too heavy into the ties with Mordor or Sauron, but focus on the human intrigue instead. That way, the story could stay humorous and witty the whole way through, which is the point Nuru brought up earlier.

Cami

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I'm not too sure about how it would fit in with the story, but I was thinking maybe there could be jealousy about Finduilas from someone who would have liked to be married to the Steward of Gondor? Perhaps she could try to set Finduilas up to seem a member of the "Friends"?

EDIT: Oh, sorry. I've been in Search for the Lost Messenger, Swan Wood, Quest for the Ainereg, Reclaiming the City, Threat of the Trees and Holiday in the Sun

PS Durelin, clear your PMs! I got into the White Tower!

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Manardariel]

NOW were getting somewhere.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Oooh, yes, let´s let the evil´s have WIVES!!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Maybe they could be really ambixious, and they were the ones who bullied there husbands into spying. To get the whole thing not to Mordor-ish, maybe the guys don´t know who they´re working for... we can make them REALLY thick. Like totally dumb. Crabbe-and-Goyle-ish. (Sorry for the HP-reference!) Or, another idea: they aren´t working for Sauron, but for the corsairs of Umbra. That would mean they´re not for the total baddies... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Keep being creative, everyone!

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Wow, I really like that idea, with the Friends of Dol Amroth thing too.

I think Lyra's idea:

I'm not too sure about how it would fit in with the story, but I was thinking maybe there could be jealousy about Finduilas from someone who would have liked to be married to the Steward of Gondor? Perhaps she could try to set Finduilas up to seem a member of the "Friends"?

is rather interesting, although it may make the story a bit complicated. But I'm sure Meela would tell us that Denethor was a very handsome and desirable young man [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] who was additionally going to rule the country. I'm sure plenty of the local Minas Tirith girls were a little jealous of Finduilas. It might be interesting to make there be some tension in the court between the girls from Dol Amroth and say, the daughters of Ecthelion's court.

*rubs hands together* I'm quickly becoming very excited about this.

Sophia

Arien and Annunfuiniel are okay to post, please put a note up here, like Carlas or Lyra did so everyone knows your experience.

[Annunfuiniel]

I'm here, I'm here! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Ok, so for my 'experience': I've played/am playing in Swan Wood, In the Footsteps of the Grey Company ( [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]) and Hunt for the Dragon RPGs and visited the Green Dragon briefly. So far all my RPG characters have been male so I think it's about time to consider playing female.

Great ideas, all! My first suggestion is that there might be one older woman in the group of Finduilas' followers. Maybe this would be her old nurse, the 'mark-my-words-that's-mere-trouble-my-child' kind of mother figure, very (read: over-) protective and there's none such thing as 'not her business'. She has certain authority in the women's group (especially in case this story takes place before the wedding) but more or less silent rebelling is one of the girls' everyday sport. If someone tries to hurt "her girl(s)" the attacker better be ready to face a fierce mother bear.

Well, that's my two pennies/cents/whatever for now. Let's see if I can think of something better later. Keep up the good work!

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]Annun

[Child of the 7th Age]

I like a lot of these ideas.

Maybe the jealously thing could just be an undercurrent at the beginning so it would be harder for Finduilas to accomplish her goals and make friends. Poor Finduilias arrives in court and half the women are throwing stones at her, even though she didn't do anything! (It's even possible the Friends of Dol Amroth could exploit this and play both sides.)

Perhaps, she'd have some kind of breakthrough in the making friends department fairly early in the game (after 3 weeks or so, real time?). Then she and the other ladies who are leaders in the court could put their heads together and begin to get suspicious about these "Friends".

That means you'd have three main groups in the story:

A. Finduilas and her servants and ladies-in-waiting she brought with her. This would include the older Nurse whom Annun just described.

B. The local court ladies who start out very jealous of group A and only gradually make friends. (Maybe one of them almost got to marry Denethor and is pretty huffed about that at first).

C. The real baddies who pit group A and B against one another, and ho go around spying, but who get found out by the end.

Someone suggested group C could be tied to the Corsairs rather than directly to Sauron, and that's a good idea too.

Cami

[ May 22, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Arien]

Im here too!

My experience: The road to Erebor, The Quest for the Ainereg, Escape from Nurn, Truth in a Dark Place, Sailing Away (and The Fall of Greenwood the Great coming to a RP fourm near you soon).

There are some really good ideas here! I like the whole idea of spying. But I have to go now so I will get back with some ideas in the morning.

[*Varda*]

Is it ok if I help plan this as well? It looks really interesting.

Previous experience - Audience with the King, Castle Maladil, In War, and Sailing Away (even if that hasn't started yet, strictly speaking...)

Varda

[Durelin]

Okay, I was thinking maybe, since you want it to be light and humorous, it could be that these women perhaps set up the wedding. We have suspicions that Finduilas might have had something to do with the attack on the Corsairs and persuading Ecthelion, perhaps Denethor had that suspicion also. So, maybe he had some reserves about marrying her, even if it was mostly set up (I don't know, was it?) And then these women (perhaps Finduilas's maids or something of that sort in disguise, or not in disguise, whatever) scheme and plot, maybe subtly mentioning things about her and working around with rumors with the servants and other nobles and such. Plus, we could include the party idea by having them persuade the men to have a party and then Finduilas comes and then...romantic...goal reached...the end?

Howzat? Just a suggestion...

P.S.- Sorry LyraI I'll hop to it! Cool! You joined! YAY! See you there!!

[maikafanawen]

Heyho all! I'm here too!

Experience: The Road to Erebor; Swan Wood; Quest for the Ainereg; Truth in a Dark Place; The Summons + numerous RPGs on other sites--(not all LOTR).

I have an idea that is only half way formed—which is what is wanted on this thread anyroad so here agoes:

What if we threw a bit of Wormtongue into the plot. There could be a head female spy for the corsairs—I like this idea better than the Sauron idea, kudos to whoever thought of it—and she is known as a lady of Minas Tirith, when in truth she has just sort of meddled her way into the circle. This character would have to be a very strong character who is extremely persuasive and probably very beautiful. She could be the sort of the ‘leader’ of Group C—referring to Cami’s outline. Maybe she had the idea to marry Denethor therefore taking a lot of power into her own hands and when Finduilas comes and her goals are all but shattered. Instead of putting so much violence into the plot, since the corsair spy doesn’t want her true identity revealed, she begins to befriend Finduilas’ group or something trying to regain what she lost and something like that…like I said, I only had a taste of it formed…any additional ideas?

I'm tickled by this whole RPG idea -- this will be so much fun!

-Maikafanawen

Heyho to Durelin--your new RPG looks extremely interesting...once I have a moment I'll read through it all! I hope you're successful with it, you're an astronomical writer!

[Nurumaiel]

All right, I'm finally here. I like all the ideas and I thank Cami for putting it all down in one post! Whew!

I particulary like the idea of the jealous woman who once loved Denethor. In fact, just the kind of character I have never played but would dearly love to do so. Especially after reading all those Agatha Christie books. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] There are a lot of women like that in those books.

[Durelin]

Thanks Maika! You are a beautiful writer. How do you write so much?! Your posts are always so long!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

But, when you have the jealous women, what is the goal a group of women would want to accomplish? Did someone already say that...I am tired, I might have missed it...

[Manardariel]

Thanks Cami! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I´m reusing her catigorization to summerize what we have untill now.

Different Groups that would interact:

A) Finduilas and her gang. Would include Maids, the old Mother-ish character someone referred too, Ladies etc.

B) Minas Tirith Gang. Would include girls and ladies who have worked and lived at the court all their lives and are offended Denethor is marrying a "foreighnor" instead of one of the city girls. However, they quickly gang up with group a aginst group C.

c) The baddies. A group of three ambixious women who are intrested in three things: money, contacts and consequently power. Would include the "Friends from Dol Amroth" and their wives, who are really working for the corsairs. One of them has a daughter who could be the evil-ish chick Maikafanawen suggested.

Group C starts to interact with group A as soon as threy arrive to befriend them (again, Maika´s idea- thanks!). Group B is more than unhappy about this and start being nice to group A to get group C off them. How does that sound?

Note: I left out the aspect of jealously, mainly to avoid things to get nasty and bloody (remember Moulin Rouge?) Maybe we could instead just have the key motives as Predjudice/Pride for group B and just plain ambixiousness for group C.

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Manardariel ]

[Manardariel]

Complete List of People interested in planning and playing

Maikafanawen
Lyra Greenleaf
Carlas
Durelin
Manardariel
Nuru
Sophia
Varda
Arien
Annufuiniel

Important notice: we will exept two more planners/players!! Please PM me if you are ineterested. Do not post here! Thank you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Manardariel ]

[*Varda*]

Just a couple of ideas/questions.

I like what everyone's got so far, only I don't think Groups A and B would gang up against C so quickly - If Finduilas and co. are new to the court, and Group C are being friendly to them, how would the Minas Tirith gang turn Group A against the Friends of Dol Amroth? However, while Group B are trying to convince Group A to gang up on Group C, this would probably lead to some hostility/tension between Finduilas & co, and the Minas Tirith gang. (All these groups are confusing me... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

Anyway, that's all my brain can contribute at midnight, but I'll sleep on it and post more later.

[Carlas]

I was thinking we could have a character in group C who was sort of dragged along into becoming a 'baddie'. She could start to become friends with Finduilas and feels bad for really plotting against her but does not want to be disloyal to the person who made her come along. (perhaps a sister or husband)

Though, that might make things a little more complicated! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ May 23, 2003: Message edited by: Carlas ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Note: I left out the aspect of jealously, mainly to avoid things to get nasty and bloody (remember Moulin Rouge?) Maybe we could instead just have the key motives as Predjudice/Pride for group B and just plain ambixiousness for group C.

Eek, yes, bloody Vendetta style jealousy is definately something we'd want to avoid. But I thought that general petty jealousy might work okay. Kind of a "What has she got that we haven't got" attitude on the part of the Minas Tirith girls.

If Finduilas and co. are new to the court, and Group C are being friendly to them, how would the Minas Tirith gang turn Group A against the Friends of Dol Amroth? However, while Group B are trying to convince Group A to gang up on Group C, this would probably lead to some hostility/tension between Finduilas & co, and the Minas Tirith gang.

Group A would already be slightly suspicious of the "Friends" as they themselves are from Dol Amroth, and as such should recognize the "Friends" but don't. Otherwise, you're right, it would get very messy. I think it's rather more difficult to turn the Minas Tirith girls against the Friends of Dol Amroth, as they don't have any inherent suspicion of them.

Sophia

[Manardariel]

I like Carlas idea about the "not-really-baddie"... maybe that could be "Maika´s evil Chick"´s sister.

To turn group B against group C, maybe we could say especially the "evil-chick" Maika suggested is really nose-up and everything, bossing everyone around, acting like she´s queen of Gondor- naturally, group B is really p*ssed at that... eh?

Conficts

1) Group A vs. Group B Group B (the Minas Tirith girls) are envious and frustrated because Denethor didn´t marry one of them, but a "foreighner".
Resolved: quickly

2) Group A vs. Group C Suspicion from Group A because they don´t know the so-called "Friends from Dol Amroth"
Resolved: doesn´t, but it turns into 3)

3) Group A and B vs. Group C Group A is supcious and Group B is annoyed- they both resolve their own problem to fight against Group C. The girl Carlas suggested would be act as a double agent and tell everything she knows. (maybe)
Resolved: at the end of the game!

Hey! We have a clear cut ending!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Manardariel,

It sounds like you're on your way, but you need to spell out more detail.

I do have one suggestion about something to add to the games worksheet. You might want a real short section -- just a few sentences--entitled "Historical Background." This could be somewhere near the top, even before the plotline, stating the basic historical background: growing power of Sauron and his allies; growing conflict between Gondor and Umbar which will ultimately lead to Thorongil's (Aragorn's) destruction of the Corsair ships just four years later.

I think that this would help set your RPG into some kind of context.

Cami

[ May 24, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[*Varda*]

So, we have the double agent revealing all to Groups A + B, so they know everything. What happens then? Would they try and solve it themselves (although that could get messy, and really rather complicated), or would they tell Denethor and let him sort it out? To tell Denethor, it would have to be clearer what the Friends of Dol Amroth were doing – what exactly were they finding out for the Corsairs – was it about the possible attack on the Corsair fleet? And did they actually succeed in finding out little bits of information in the short time they befriended Finduilas and her gang, or did they hear anything else around the court?

I wouldn’t really say the ending was that clear-cut so far – we know Groups A and B know about it, but not how they will resolve it.

I’m not sure how much sense I just made, even to myself, but this is just my thoughts on the matter.

[Carlas]

I think the 'double agent' would not want to tell everyone, she would probably go to Finduilas and tell her. Then Finduilas would have to go to Denethor, and perhaps we can have another sort of conflict there. Perhaps Denethor was friends with one of the men, and refuses to believe that he would have anything to do with the thing!

[maikafanawen]

How will Group A and Group B eventually become friends? Will they just poof—one of Group B approaches one of Group A with their concerns about Group C and the representative from Group A says something like, “Hey, wow, ye know, we’ve [noticed/think] that too!!—” etc. . .or will some sort of event take place forcing them into allies?

I think that rumors should be a part of the RPG. The main person of Group C should perhaps weave together rumors that would turn Group B and Group A even more against each other and even Denethor against Finduilas. Then one of the maids from (most sensibly) Group A finds out or overhears something the “evil chic” is saying and sort of begins to piece things together. . . ?

As far as ideas for the clear cut ending—I want to expand Cami’s suggestion. After Group A and Group B uncover Group C’s motives—perhaps they don’t “reveal” them to the rest of Minas Tirith. Instead, they give them false information about how they’re going to take care, of the corsair fleet and “evil chic” begins to get nervous and sends a messenger to the corsairs telling them what she knows. Then Denethor sends his true motives out to the “field,” destroying their fleets for real. Eh?

I think that once Group A and Group B are sure of the true identities of Group C, Finduilas should gather all her proof together and confront Denethor, telling him all she knows. That way, Groups A & B would have even more backing should she be successful in convincing him--see Carlas' idea.

Those are my ideas for the morning.

-Maikafanawen

[ May 24, 2003: Message edited by: maikafanawen ]

[maikafanawen]

Nope, I lied, I've got one more idea. This concerns the vaguely mentioned party--Group B and Group A know about Group C by this time and have been working together. At the Party, the "evil chic" is working to over-throw Finduilas by telling falsehoods about her past or family etc. The ladies and maids of Group A & G are trying to stop them. That's when the double agent can play and extremely significant role. She has to make Group C's "evil chich" believe she's still on her side--(I aggree with whoever's idea that this should be "evil chic's" sister)--while also getting the information to Group A and B. Oooh! AND Maybe even forgetting the second to last paragraph in my above ideas, Finduilas gives a sort of 'thank-you' speech (the Party would be in Finduilas' honor for this to work properly) thanking all of the attendees for coming. Through very clever words and puzzling statements, she could more or less tell Group C that she knows who they are and what they're doing. "Evil chic" realizes it and flees. That's when Finduilas can go to Denethor and tell him everything. And that's what can convince Denethor to destroy the Corsair's Fleet. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

-Maikafanawen

[*Varda*]

So, ideas for ending it so far are;

1) A cleverly worded speech by Finduilas, letting Group C know she’s onto them. “Evil Chic” flees, Denethor is told, and destroys the Corsair fleet.
2) Groups A and B feed Group C false information, panicking them, and “evil chic” tells the Corsairs what she knows. Then Denethor destroys their fleets.

I like 1) , but at the same time I do like Maika’s idea that rumours should be an important part of the story, and with 2) even more are being spread. Oh, I’m torn between the two – perhaps they can be put together in some way?

3) Groups A and B still spread rumours to Group C about a possible attack on the Corsair fleet, and “evil chick” still sends a messenger to tell the Corsairs what she knows. The party that evening is the ideal time for Finduilas’ speech, and “evil chick” realises that she has been fooled by Groups A and B and flees – she can’t go back to the Corsairs after giving them wrong information, but she can’t stay in the court. Denethor could then find out – the proof is there, as “evil chick” has gone, showing her disloyalty.

So, the game could end when “evil chick” (she really needs a name [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) has left the court and Denethor is told and takes action.