Galadriel

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 49</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
did the curse of mandos/doom of the noldor affect galadriel? i am assuming it didn't, but shouldn't it have?
i mean all of her brother, her father and uncles died, why didn't she.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 269</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel

Difficult answer.

On one hand it did.
On the other (in re-write) it didn't.

Take your pick as to the answer that suits you.

I take the second option, but then that's based on my views already expressed here.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

And she never joined the oath of Fëanor, as the rest of the best did, nor killed anybody in Alqualondë

[Voronwe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 77</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel

I don't understand. I though only Feanor and his seven sons swore the oath.


-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 270</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Galadriel

The Doom of the Noldor is also a result of the Kinslaying, not SOLELY due to the Oath of Feanor.

It applied to the Sons especially, but ALSO to ANY who followed them.

In the re-write; Galadriel did not accompany the Noldor, but set out for Middle earth independently, and of different motivation accompanied by her mate Celeborn and his tag-along Teler friend Celebrimbor.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 50</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

i agree with you on the kinslaying and the oath of feanor, but the sons of finarfin took no part in the kinslaying yet they were also bound to the curse of mandos.

unless i am mistaken wouldn't the HoME books and the unfinished tales be the original documents since the silmarillion was taken from them?

and wasn't celebrimbor the son of curufin, which should also bind him to the oath of feanor
or should it. there are a lot of arguments and exceptions dealing with this, i maybe we should start another post dealing with celebrimbor too.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 271</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but the sons of finarfin took no part in the kinslaying yet they were also bound to the curse of mandos<hr></blockquote>
Yes; that's why it's stipulated above in that it also applied to ANY who followed Feanor and sons into exile.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> since the silmarillion was taken from them<hr></blockquote>
A heavily contested position.

Some like to pick and choose what is taken.
But your premise is correct. They are the ultimate source.
Christopher arranged the notes for publication as best as he was able at the time.
History paints a slightly different picture when taken into context.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> i maybe we should start another post dealing with celebrimbor too<hr></blockquote>
You could... but there really wouldn't be much point.
Depending on which view is taken of document context... just about ANYTHING could be presented about Celebrimbor (and other instances) and be vaild (within reason please)... again; depending on which view is taken of document context and time-frame. In the re-write; Celebrimbor is NOT the son of Curufin, nor is even a Noldo.

I've gotten into a few disagreements on textual stance, and advise against such a course of action as it ultimately leads to futility; due to personal interpretation, (and even fabrication) as rebuttal.

I merely presented the situation as evidence of re-write and as an aid in the answer to your question.

AFAIK; this is one of the last issues addressed by Tolkien before his death (if not THE last).
Some hold (I do not) that he was near dotage and couldn't remember things clearly, and that this is the reason for extensive changes in the latter part of his life. That is thier opinion of course. I let others judge the justness of it.

And in answer to the re-named topic: not exactly.
The published Silmarillion is CHRISTOPHER'S re-write.
Not JRRT's.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 53</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

i haven't read all of HoME but in most cases i will take it for fact over Silmarillion. I choose to do this for a couple reasons:
1) they are a truer source since they were taken more directly from J.R.R. Tolkien's notes.
2) each story is expanded on in HoME whereas LotR and Sil. aren't. so there is more information in HoME though it may seem more cryptic.

So i will go along with celebrimbor being sindarin, even if he may seem like a greater craftsman than most of the noldor(Eol was). and galadriel undertaking the journey for different reasons, although it makes less sense.
one of the few cases i won't take HoME over Sil. is in Finwe's case, Sil.'s just seems right.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 276</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: i though the silmarillion was the rewrite

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> i will take it for fact over Silmarillion<hr></blockquote>
That is your option.
I happen to agree with it, but it is your option.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> one of the few cases i won't take HoME over Sil. is in Finwe's case<hr></blockquote>
Speaking of cryptic staements; what does this mean?
Finwe's case concerning.....?

</p>

[Arvedui]

When one takes an author's notes and drafts and works them into a story, thewre will be inconsistancies. Chris Tolkien has done a rather amazing job putting all the bits together, and I have to say that I'm suprised there are not more inconsistancies. One of the harder stories to piece together is that od Celeborn and Galadriel as noted in Unfinished Tales.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Orald

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 49</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
did the curse of mandos/doom of the noldor affect galadriel? i am assuming it didn't, but shouldn't it have?
i mean all of her brother, her father and uncles died, why didn't she.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. </p>

I don't think she was under the curse. The sorrows she experienced in Middle-earth (e.g. death of her brothers, loss of kingdoms, capture of Celebrian, etc...), all these tragedies seem to be a given as long as a Dark Lord is present. Tragedies touched everyone--Men and the Nandor (who were not present or explicitly cursed by Mandos). So it's not too reliable to attribute Galadriel's trials with the curse, especially if you're going with Tolkien's late idea of Galadriel. But if it's the Silmarillion, she was still guiltless from the kinslaying and her intentions to leave valinor were solely for the exercise of her talents. Nothing sinister or curse-evoking about that.

[morwen edhelwen]

What curse? if you are using the account that says she participated in the Kinslaying, the Doom may have just meant, for her, that she was under the Ban and semi-permanent exile. The tragedies that affected her (such as Celebrian's death) may have had nothing to do with the fact that she had disobeyed the Valar.

[Galin]

AFAIK; this is one of the last issues addressed by Tolkien before his death (if not THE last). Some hold (I do not) that he was near dotage and couldn't remember things clearly, and that this is the reason for extensive changes in the latter part of his life. That is thier opinion of course. I let others judge the justness of it.

But this issue of Tolkien's memory is raised by Christopher Tolkien himself, for example...

'These late writings are notable for the many wholly new elements that entered the 'legendarium'; and also for the number of departures from earlier work on the Matter of the Elder Days. It may be suggested that whereas my father set great store by consistency at all points with The Lord of the Rings and the Appendices, so little concerning the First Age had appeared in print that he was under far less constraint. I am inclined to think, however, that the primary explanation of these differences lies rather in his writing largely from memory. The histories of the First Age would always remain in a somewhat fluid state so long as they were not fixed in published work; and he certainly did not have all the relevant manuscripts clearly arranged and set out before him. But it remains in any case an open question, whether (to give a single example) in the essay Of Dwarves and Men he had definitely rejected the greatly elaborated account of the houses of the Edain that had entered the Quenta Silmarillion in about 1958, or whether it had passed from his mind.'

Christopher Tolkien, Foreword, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Even Tolkien himself noted: 'There are clear evidences of confusion (as he said at one point, 'my memory is no longer retentive'), but there are elements...' CJRT, Last Writings

And I would add that Tolkien need not have been very old to write a new text while forgetting some detail already published. The Lord of the Rings is a relatively long and detailed work, and it would be easy enough for anyone to forget something that arguably 'should' have been considered when writing later texts.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

What curse? if you are using the account that says she participated in the Kinslaying, the Doom may have just meant, for her, that she was under the Ban and semi-permanent exile. The tragedies that affected her (such as Celebrian's death) may have had nothing to do with the fact that she had disobeyed the Valar.

There was no death for Celebrian. She left for Valinor after that terrible ordeal at the Redhorn pass.

[morwen edhelwen]

[QUOTE=Gorthaur the Cruel;631402]There was no death for Celebrian. She left for Valinor after that terrible ordeal at the Redhorn pass.[/QUOTE
Yes. i forgot..but didn't Tolkien write somewhere that Elf-women could die from being attacked by Orcs? Can someone confirm the truth of this? Celebrian did not die.. but she could have, couldn't she? -Morwen Edhelwen.

[elbenprincess]

elf maidens would die if they are raped by someone. And I don´t believe she was raped, "just" tortured.