Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[Orald]

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<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>I have heard many theories on who he was. Tolkien never said exactly who it was but he gave a few hints.

<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Results (total votes = 98):<table bgcolor=#FFFFFF border=0 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 width="75%"> <tbody> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr><TR BGCOLOR=#E0E0E0><TD NOWRAP> <FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Nature/Earth Spirit&nbsp</td> <td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>45&nbsp;/&nbsp;45.9%&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/bar.gif width=137 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr><TR BGCOLOR=#E0E0E0><TD NOWRAP> <FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Ainur&nbsp</td> <td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>17&nbsp;/&nbsp;17.3%&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/bar.gif width=52 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr><TR BGCOLOR=#E0E0E0><TD NOWRAP> <FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Tolkien himself&nbsp</td> <td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>9&nbsp;/&nbsp;9.2%&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/bar.gif width=27 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr><TR BGCOLOR=#E0E0E0><TD NOWRAP> <FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Original concept for Man&nbsp</td> <td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>6&nbsp;/&nbsp;6.1%&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/bar.gif width=18 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr><TR BGCOLOR=#E0E0E0><TD NOWRAP> <FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Other&nbsp</td> <td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>21&nbsp;/&nbsp;21.4%&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/bar.gif width=64 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr> <tr><td bgcolor="#000000" colspan=3 height=1></tr></tbody> </table>

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000045>Durelen</A> at: 2/13/01 10:33:47 am

[Orald]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

come on, i want to know what everyone thinks i don't really know what i think. i though maybe someone else might know something, or vote the way it should be.


</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

This is one of the most frequently debated questions about JRRT's works. JRRT himself, in Letters, siad Tom was an enigma, not really fitting in to any category, and was intentionally left that way. Opinions I have seen? Tom is: Eru; Aule; a Maia; an undefined spirit; the embodiment of Arda; an elf; etc. Letters and Sil. (and probably HoME) seem to say that Eru would not inhabit Ea, certainly not in a physical form. Those who advocate Aule surprise me. Aule was a smith, he concerned himself with the stuff of Arda (rocks, mountains, the materials which make up the earth). Tom loved trees and forests and exercised some control over them. This doesn't fit with Aule (might fit with Orome but I'm not going there). My view? If you have to fit him into a category, he's one of the lesser Ainur who came to inhabit Arda but did not specifically ally himself with the Valar and certainly not with Morgoth. Thus he could be considered a Maia and a &quot;free agent&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I thought he was Ea or a Maia, since the last post I definatly think he is a Maia <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

Lothwen

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

for one thing i am sure, bombadil was not Eru. Some have said that he was a being like beorn, but i doubt that too because of the power bombadil wielded.

tolkien gave hints to what bombadil was. Now many scholars looked at those hints and now believe that bombadil was either aule or a nature spirit something like Ea incarnate. bombadil was most certainly something with a power much stronger than sauron's, otherwise bombadil would not be able to have mastery of the ring. unless the ring did not have any affect on him. but for the ring to have no affect on him he would have to be completely devoid of evil, like manwe.

do you agree? if not tell me details, i would like to know. thank you.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Tom is just Tom.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> nice response

i like that. tom is tom and nothing else. just an exception to the rule.

</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: nice response

Ha I am reimbursing myself into the forum.. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Anyway, There are also theories that Bombadil came out of the void therefore not classifying him as anything. And that he wandered sown into Arda on his own accord and is not bound to the same rules as everyone else....

"See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at either <a href=http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad>Mount Gundabad</a> or at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=-</p>

[Grey Fool]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom Bombadil

The most convincing theory I've seen recently on the categorisation of the Bombadillo is that he is Maia.

However, I reckon he's far too good a lyricist to truly belong in that category.

Tom Bombadil is the reincarnation of John Lennon.

Either that or he's that guy Richie who went missing from the Manic Street Preachers in 1996.

Whatever, he writes great songs <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom Bombadil

I was researching this topic and i think i found some evidence that he was either an incarnation of Ea/arda or that he was something other than a maia or vala, but still sent to Ea by Eru. here are a few passages that kinda lead to this conclusion:

&quot;'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'&quot;
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil

so obviosly he can't be a vala or a maia, since melkor was the first to enter into Ea of the ainur. as seen in this passage:

&quot;Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them...&quot;
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

&quot;them...&quot; refers to the vala in particular manwe and varda. those two just happened to be the first ainur besides melkor to enter into Ea. and my last quote from tolkien is this piece concerning the aratar:

&quot;...in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.&quot;
The Silmarillion, Valaquenta

&quot;or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent into Ea.&quot;
is the key to what bombadil really is. but if he is that other order, then he isn't more powerful that the aratar, but maybe the maiar and some of the other valar.



</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Perhaps Tom is a bit of the Flame Impersihable slipped out from the heart of the World.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Zoe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom Bombadil

Has anyone else here read Bored of the Rings? According to that, Bombadil is a hippy who's trying to escape conscription. Hrm. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[The Glorious Dead]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

<img src=http://www.ezboard. com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">
But that was Tim Benzadrine!!<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/ images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> not<!- -EZCODE ITALIC END--> being a maian, hm?<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ smile.gif ALT="">

Cheers, btw.<img src=http://www.ezboard. com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT="">

You're on crack or something, Deceased are brilliant.</p>

[Saulotus]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Whoah.

My post went bye-bye.

When I went to edit it... I got:

&quot;HTML comments are not allowed. &quot;

Scuze?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 11/16/00 1:13:22 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

I don't know what's going on, Saulotus. Look at all the messed up smileys! I think the new version of EZboard (released today) must be casuing problems.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

there are a few crackpot theories that he was the lord of the nazgul. and that he just lied to everyone. the reasoning behind it is pretty funny.

</p>

[The Glorious Dead]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

***?!? My last post has a lot of those accursed red x's but all my words have vanished!!

Oh well. What I had said was concerning Tom B and the ring. Gandalf, and indeed Sauron, were maian spirits, correct? And they were obviously subject to the ring's influence. But Bombadil put the bloody thing on his finger and it did absolutely nothing! So while this doesn't provide a theory to who or what Tom is, it does disprove the maian theory. Unless he's some mutant super-maia, which I doubt.

You're on crack or something, Deceased are brilliant.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
by RKittle
I don't know what's going on, Saulotus. Look at all the messed up smileys! I think the new version of
EZboard (released today) must be casuing problems.<hr></blockquote>
That's putting it lightly.

Oh well... there went my complete answer to the Bombadil thing.

I'm not re-posting it.

I'll point out a few of the facts it had...

Melkor left and re-entered Arda several times.
Do you want to count the first acorn (sic) from Arda at the beginning (unformed; and when Melkor and co. entered) or Arda full-wrought (i.e a planet) and before the sleep of Yavanna?
Makes a BIG difference.

Aule\Yavanna connection is sub-creative borrowing from Dragonlance (at least) .
AND it makes NO sense; even on a cursory level examination.

And those were only a few points.
The rest of the post....
Lost in cyberspace.

(Oh... and this new version of EZ-Board SUCKS [self censored])

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 11/16/00 2:19:02 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 212
Re: Tom Bombadil

I'm going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

Gandalf talking to hobbits, The Return of the King, ch7

From which it can be assumed that Bombadil was truly a maia, likewise Gandalf, as Gandalf would not compare himself to a creature of different order, would he?

it does disprove the maian theory. Unless he's some mutant super-maia, which I doubt.

why?

The ring, being a ring of power, had ability to seduce personalities wishing to obtain the power. Gandalf was afraid to take the ring, cause he wished power to cure the hurts of Arda and pain of its inhabitants, and Bobmbadil needed power not (setting the borders of his realm himself and within those being an absolute master. Ring would not add anything to that, so the ring was not able to seduce him (i.g. Melian's power inside the borders of Doriath).

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Heren Istarion said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> as Gandalf would not compare himself to a creature of different order<hr></blockquote>

The quote mentioned points out their differences and doesn't imply any shared properties.

And then you contradict yourself with: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf was afraid to take the ring, cause he wished power to cure the hurts of arda and pain of it's inhabitants, and Bobmbadil needed power not<hr></blockquote>

Both of your examples point out the differences between Gandalf and Bombadil, furthering the case that Bombadil was not a Maiar.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[The Glorious Dead]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> from which it can be assumed that Bombadil was truly a maia, likewise Gandalf, as Gandalf would not compare himself to a creature of different order.<hr></blockquote>
But where is the basis of that statement? It's not like Gandalf made a big deal out of being a Maian. Who knows, perhaps Bombadil is a creature of greater power than a maia, and Gandalf is referring to him with repect.

For when the swine repent their sins I shall be there, ready to pass my almighty judgement upon their accursed souls. I am the reaper divine, I eat the hearts of the damned! Beware, ye of little faith in my majesty, for I shall rule this pitiful world. You are mine, bow down.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 218
Re: Tom Bombadil

Easy, easy, lads don't tear me apart and mince me into thousand le-e-eetle pieces

I for myself beleive Bombadil to be a maia, but, due to JRRT's silence on the subject, and, therefore, lack of textual evidence, I can not give mo convenient proves apart from mentioned, and tacle with what I have

Still, for me he is not Gandalf's superior, nor one lesser, but one of the same rank, though acting (or, if you like acting not at all, bounding himself inside self settled frontieres) in the different way.

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them

[Taimar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

I do not think that Tom can be classified as a Maia, or any of the other races described by JRRT. He is, as the author stated himself, an enigma. It is interesting however, to speculate on his origins and purpose, even though it is impossible to arrive at a definitive answer. I`m sure I have mentioned this already on another thread at BD, but I thoughts are that Tom was possibly brought into being by Yavanna as part of her contribution to the Song. Given his well known affinity for trees, she would seem to be the Vala he would most likely be associated with.

As an aside, it was mentioned earlier that Bombadil had power over the ring. I think this is an unsupportable assumption. Remember Gandalf`s quote at the Council of Elrond, &quot;Say rather that the Ring has no power over him.&quot;


Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 340</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom Bombadil

The reasons that Bombadil is so often discussed are:
1. He is not stated as belonging to any race or order by JRRT;
2. He possesses power evidenced by his actions concerning Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wight;
3. He is stated to be &quot;eldest&quot;;
4. He does not wield his power except at need and has no aspiration to use his power to dominate;
5. The Ring has no power over him; and
6. JRRT in Letters says he is an &quot;enigma&quot; and declines to fit him into any category.

A bit of history. The poems making up the Tales of Tom Bombadil predate LoTR (and if I recall predate The Hobbit).
Tom was the subject of stories told by JRRT to his kids. JRRT liked the character and included him in LoTR. Almost a bit of &quot;comic relief&quot;.

The controversy, such as it is, arises because JRRT consciously chose not to define him for whatever reason. This should not be confused with Tom not being definable within the Mythos. He easily could have been. He is an old power and the only such powers which existed are the ainur/valar/maiar and similar &quot;spirits&quot; to the extent such spirits other than ainur/maiar existed (separate issue -- were all non-earthly spirits ainur or maiar?). He loves the earth, the trees, etc. but is not specifically affiliated with the cause of the Valar. However, he is not at odds with that cause; he merely &quot;is&quot;, meaning he's happy with what he does and does not do. He is opposed to evil but does not actively fight it. Again, he just wants to be left alone to breath the air and tend to his little bit of forest, not unlike Treebeard.

In my prior post I called him a &quot;free agent&quot;. This is a good description. JRRT, rather than calling him an enigma, could easily and simply have said &quot;He is one of the Maiar who chose to simply live in Arda out of love, without becoming involved in 'politics' or working under the guidance of the Valar. He rejects power except to the extent he must use it and for this reason the Ring does not affect him.&quot; This is a description that fits within the Mythos. Tom is not outside the paradigm. Its just that JRRT intentionally decided not to so describe him. Maybe JRRT was having a little fun at the expense of those who he perceived were taking his work a little too seriously.

I have never considered Tom to be either odd (except his personality) or unexplainable. Beorn is far stranger, a man who can change his shape fits far less within the parameters of JRRT's Legendarium than does Tom.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

I have always been partial to the Maia theory although it has been denied by JRRt in his letters.
But I must admit that it does not account for the rings lack of power over him.
I think he and Goldberry [not to mentioon her parents!!!!] are a oddball item in lotr and they don't fit into any category -no matter how much my left brain dominated mind would like them to.
So I just enjoy reading his comic verse to my 4 yr old : }

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Goldberry's another one. She fits right in with Uinen. Could be a cousin. Re: the poems, one way to look at them is to consider them as being written by Hobbits. They're rustic and the bit about Goldberry's parents and the like could be &quot;poetic license&quot;.

You have a 4 year old? Me too, but I'm not force feeding him Tolkien yet. I did get my 7 year old to start reading the Hobbit (had to get a special edition to do it, she wouldn't touch the ones I had -- Anottated Hobbit and an old 70's paperback).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Goldberry's another one. She fits right in with Uinen. Could be a cousin. Re: the poems, one way to look at them is to consider them as being written by Hobbits. They're rustic and the bit about Goldberry's parents and the like could be &quot;poetic license&quot;.

You have a 4 year old? Me too, but I'm not force feeding him Tolkien yet. I did get my 7 year old to start reading the Hobbit (had to get a special edition to do it, she wouldn't touch the ones I had -- Annotated Hobbit and an old 70's paperback).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

In the Tolkien Reader, there is an extensive piece on Tom Bombadil. In LOTR however, he isn't a very major character at all. What actually makes him such an 'enigma' is Tolkien's refusal to define him and the fact that he is unaffected by the Ring. Also Gandalf evidently respects Bomabadil a lot.
But finally, I would have to agree with someone on the previous page who said Tom is Tom. He is. And tempted as we may be to dissect his character, let us refrain from it and leave him as Tolkien wanted - an enigma.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 361</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

Welcome Wanderer! Undoubtedly the mystery of Tom will always be a mystery. That is what intrigues people. Leave him be? Then how could we have any fun? Nothing like beating a dead horse, except maybe beating it over and over again. As long as there are message boards and JRRT is popular, Tom's origin will be a popular topic. At this point, even if some forgotten manuscript emerged in which JRRT explicitly stated &quot;Tom is a ______&quot;, someone would say &quot;Oh, he was experimenting, JRRT didn't really mean it. Tom is clearly the Wraith of Angmar (hee hee).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

I suppose you're right upto an extent Mithaden. People will not stop wondering about or discussing his true race or whatever.
But I think it's quite clear that Tolkien wanted Tom to remain a mystery, an enigma. And if we all love Tolkien as madly as we say we do, wouldn't we do better to respect what he wanted us to know, and not dissect his characters?

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 370</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom Bombadil

There's an old joke from a Woody Allen movie, where Allen is speaking to a date in line at a movie theater about the hidden meaning of something written by Marshall MacCluen (sp?) when the man steanding in front of them contests Allen's interpretation. Allen responds with something along the lines of &quot;who the hell are you?&quot; and the man responds &quot;But I am Marshall MacCluen.&quot; Woody answers &quot;You don't know what you're talking about.&quot; Similar joke, a fan is telling Bob Dylan how deep and inspiring his music is and Dylan responds &quot;I just wanted it to rhyme.&quot;

Yes. JRRT said Tom's an &quot;enigma&quot;. But his writing is deep and inspiring and people will tend to interpret his work and fill in the gaps. Tom's one of the gaps (although, as I argued above, he didn't have to be). I am perfectly satisfied to read and accept what's written and let Tom be. Until I started frequenting these boards I didn't really care who Tom was (and still really don't). But when others start suggesting that Tom is what he really can't be (JRRT in Letters expressly states that Eru never entered Arda; Tom can't be Aule because their personalities and purposes are different, etc.) I can't resist weighing in with a simple solution consonant with JRRT's mythos.

In the past I've tried sticking with &quot;Tom's an enigma, just leave him be&quot; but its like telling someone not to think about pink elephants. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

BTW, does a Balrog have wings? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 52</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom is what i want him to be

i think tom is a being akin to the ainur, yet not of them, similar to the eagles. everyone else might not think this, many of you might think that he is a maia or a nature spirit or something else. but that is your idea of tom, and to you that is who tom is and will always be.

tolkien left tom a mystery to make a point but in doing so he left it up to each reader to decide for himself/herself who tom is. it is like tolkien said, he left blanks to be filled in by others.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

All right then. You think of Tom as you want. I shall think of him as an enigma. And I think I have the better deal between the two of us. Though if I heard someone define Tom as I think he isn't, I would jump to contradict him.

No I don't think a balrog has wings.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 374</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

What do you mean a Balrog doesn't have wings!!!????? I suppose you think elves have pointed ears too! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

As I said, I too prefer to not concern myself with Tom's origins. Tom is Tom. I also don't worry about how Beorn got his shape shifting ability (though I confess I am curious because it doesn't seem to &quot;fit&quot.

Tom is a case of something which is better left unsaid. I am consistently amazed at the heated debates about Tom that I've seen on other boards. Once or twice I tried to interject the &quot;enigma&quot; quote and was roundly ignored. There are a few subjects which seem to get peoples dander up. Tom is one, along with Balrog wings (or lack thereof), elven ears, and the origins of orcs (which is a subject I do like to weigh in on, see two threads in the Silmarillion canon forum). Frankly, I'm glad this thread didn't degenerate. That's one thing I like about the Downs, people are generally tolerant even of unusual theories.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 18</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

A Balrog doesn't have wings. I don't remember reading that anyway. And no! I don't think elves have pointy ears!
Origins of orcs? I never really thought about it. I suppose they started out nice and probably came over the Sea or something and then there was probably a civil war in which the Dark orcs won and the entire race turned evil. How's that for a theory?!
Tolkien fans tend to get heated up over anything-the origin of a language, the colour of a sword, the morals of a character...Everyone wants to be a Glorien.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

Sorry Lorien Wanderer, by the way that is a cool nickname...

Balrogs most certainly have wings, and I believe it is mentioned in the LOTR, if not directly but I am sure it mentions that he has some sort of wings when he &quot;jumps onto&quot; the bridge of Kazad Dum.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Posts: 1626</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

Oh this is bad!!!!

Bringing the Balrog Wings arguement into the same thread as 'Who is Tom Bombadil'.... You folks trying to wreck the place!!!?

If you want to argue about balrogs and their useless, unlikely appendages, start a new thread!


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 377</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

Guys! I was joking when I brought up balrogs and orcs (the later is a horse we've beaten extensively, see Silmarillion, Canon Studies forum). I was trying to make the point that there are certain issues that people will argue about until the cows come home. Cease fire! Or if you really have to, Ron's right, set up another balrog thread (groan).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 60</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

and i think ron wrote that article. but i think it is a good idea to keep the heated arguments to one thread, that way everyone gets real confused and they decide to just stop.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 200</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

If my calculations are correct, this is my 200th post. In honor of that milestone, I'll chip in here as an advocate of heated debates over obscure points of contention. Why nip them in the bud? As long as they remain civil, which they almost always do here at the Downs (unless the other person is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ), they're what make the boards interesting and fun. There's nothing like a lively debate to keep me surfing back to the Forum to check for the latest salvo and reaching for my books to garner ammunition.

</p>