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#1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
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Just like to discuss a few name changes, if I may.
First of all 'Mahtan' as the name of Nerdanel's father. This is encountered in LQ II. (This, is I think, though I cant be bothered to check the first time we encounter 'Mahtan'. Nerdanel first appeard in LQ I as Istarnië.) In notes that accompany the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' we read that Nerdanel's fathers name was what C.T thinks reads 'Sarmo' and his Epessë 'Urundil', which was more widely known. (Like 'Ereinion' was widely known by his epessë 'Gil-Galad'). Could we call him 'Urundil' or 'Sarmo Urundil' or make a note that his name was Sarmo but he was widely known as Urundil because of the copper circlet he wore on his head or just retain 'Mahtan' to avoid confusion? 'Maedhros/Maedros'-In the 'Problem of Ros' we find out that Tolkien wanted to change his name to MaedRON due to the difficulties in incorporating 'rus'-'ros' as a refernce to his red-brown hair. 'Maedros' is a combination of his mother name and nick-name, Maitimo and Russandol. Also, the tendency of the Fëanorians in translating their mother-names, wouldn't it be better to call him Amarthan ('Fated one') then Amrod ,the Sindarin form of 'exalted'.(Of course in the Pub.Sil the twins are called Amrod (The Elder) and Amras (The Younger.)Tolkien comments on the use of Amarthan, saying 'whenever encountered' that was what was used, but what 'encountered' means I do not know, I assume it means spoken of? Should we give their Quenya names too? I feel it would be interesting, it would also give people info. on their characters. That is all for now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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#2 | ||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It's good to see you here again, Inderjit.
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Since "Amrod" was retained in the Shibboleth, I'd rather stick with it, unless there's something I'm missing. And I always presumed that "Amrod" was translated not from "Umbarto" but from "Ambarto". But I guess there's no real evidence for or against this. Quote:
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#3 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 716
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Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan./QUOTE] These are the notes on the translation on the Sindarin names of the sons of Fëanor, which C.T stated were too illegible for him to print there. They are found in 'Vinyar Tengwar 39'.
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“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone |
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#4 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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In other words, the original situation, the one that was preserved by the failure of the "Ros" idea, is that there are two distinct stems, one meaning "red-brown" and the other meaning "foam". Tolkien wanted to alter this so that the single meaning was "foam", and this was Beorian. But "Cair Andros" is a sindarin name, so the solution change was no good. In other words, I think that "Maedron" is dependent on the abandoned idea, and should thus not be used. Regarding "Amrod": the sense I get from the quote is that "Amrod" is the form to be used. It is difficult to judge what he means by "whenever encountered" (if that's even what he wrote). But it is clear that "Amrod" would have been the Sindarization of the name actually used. The difference comes down to a translation of "Ambarto" vs. a translation of "Umbarto". Of course, this situation is different from most name decisions because in fact both names are certainly valid and the decision is not which to take as canonical but which to use when he must be referred to. |
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#5 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
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Of course there are several conclusions that we can reach from this. We can comment on the often ‘incorrect’ Sindarinization (If there is such a word) of the names of the Etyañgoldi (Such as say Aegnor) and so when translating his name and trying to find a Sindarin alternative, or the nearest Sindarin alternative to Ñoldorin and Telerin Quenya urus=RUSSandol, he stumbled upon or made up ‘Ros’ But this is unsatisfactory. The Sindarin form of “ros”=spray has nothing to do with the colour red and thus the two cannot be linked. Surely a Ñoldo would not make such a calamitous phonetic error especially in regards to his name? We do hear that with the exception of Maglor and Curufin the sons of Fëanor weren’t very semantically inclined but such a blunder is perplexing in my mind. Another theory that we can come up with is the form of ’ros’ in Cair AndROS can be seen as ‘incorrect’ since in ‘Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor’ we hear; his Quote:
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Of course any change of the ‘ros’ form would effect the name ‘Amros’ derived from his mother-name Ambarussa. But I think the easiest solution could be to simply record ‘ros’ as a addition by the Ñoldor for the colour red, derived from russa. his
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#6 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I still disagree about "Maedron". But I'm home for the weekend and so, alas, without HoMe XII; and I don't want to venture into an analysis of "Ros" without having it in front of me. So I'll get back to you regarding this whole business sometime late Tuesday or Wednesday.
And, by the way, thanks for pointing out these issues. All three (Mahtan, Maedhros, and Amrod) had escaped me completely. [ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] |
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#7 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Okay, I've been reunited with my books.
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So as I see it the change of "Maedhros" to "Maedron" does depend on the change in "The Problem of Ros". If we decide to use "Maedron" we are essentially electing to keep half of the change. But my impression is that the whole idea was rejected. Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say. Quote:
That note is really quite mystifying, though - what could be meant by "when encountered at all"? Does it mean that the Noldor called him "Amarthan" after his death? Or does it mean that texts call him "Amarthan"? Do you know roughly when that note was written? All this may be somewhat moot, though; there will not be so very many occasions to refer to Amrod other than at his birth and at his death, in both of which cases his names will play a central role (and hence they will not necessitate a simple Amrod/Amarthan decision). |
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#8 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wolverhampton, England
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Of course we could just say that -ros had two unconnected meanings, regardless of whether or not this makes any sense, claim as is said in 'Of Dwarves and Men' and 'Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor' that the rendering of the names within Gondor was inncaurate because of the inadequate knowledge of Sindarin of the people who named the places in Gondor and so and so keep -ros as a word for the colour red, and -ros also as a Bëorian word for spray/spindrift. Quote:
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Of course, one can see the sensibility of adopting 'Amrod' rather then 'Amarthan', since it was his 'proper' name, but I think Amarthan would have been the one that was remembered because of his fate. Quote:
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“If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone |
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#9 | |||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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But prior to the writing of "The Problem of Ros", it had two distinct meanings, both in Sindarin; and in fact these two senses, according to the Etymologies, are from different stems. One is ROS- and the other RUS-. In fact, Etymologies even has some instances of the same stem bearing two distinct meanings; there is, for example, another ROS- meaning "plain". So what I had been assuming, in light of the rejection of the revised "Ros" idea, is that we would return to the situation where ROS- refers to "spray/spindrift" and RUS- to "reddish-brown, copper". In this case, "Maedhros", "Russandol", "Ambarussa", and so on, can all be retained alongside "Cair Andros", "Elros", etc. The other option is to eliminate the RUS- stem and leave ROS- as it is. But it is perhaps significant that this solution (which would seem the simplest) was never proposed by Tolkien. It would also leave us in a difficult spot with regard to other names and words derived from RUS-. For "Maedhros" we have a possible replacement, but not for "Russandol", "Ambarussa", or anything else. Quote:
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#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog
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Just a thought no one's mentioned, but Orodreth should be changed to Arothir, and he is the son of angrod, not finarfin. I can't find where it says this, but it's in the note on Gil-galad's parentage in PoME.
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#11 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Arothir is one of his names. But Orodreth is still valid when we follow "The decendents of Finwë" in "The shibboleth of Fëanor" where Arothir is given.
In the case of his parentage you are clearly right. Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 |
Wight
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Yes, but Tolkien in one of his notes to shibboleth refers to Gil-galad being the son of Arothir, who is said to be Felagund's nephew and steward.
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#13 |
Wight
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Forgive that last post, I was missing the point. Orodreth is not a valid name. In genealogies around the time but perhaps before the Shibboleth, he is called in Quenya Artaresto and in Sindarin Orodreth. This later becomes in Quenya Artaher and in Sindarin Arothir. This can be found in the note on Gilgalad's parentage in POME
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#14 |
Late Istar
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I thought that "Arothir" was his proper Sindarin name and "Orodreth" an epesse given due to his love for the mountains. I am inclined to think that "Orodreth" is still valid. But I may be wrong. I will have to look at Shibboleth again.
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#15 |
Wight
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You are thinking of his name Artaresto, which in Sindarin is Rodreth which became Orodreth for his love of the mountains.
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#16 | |
The Kinslayer
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From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
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By some strange reason I find myself liking the name Orodreth, so if I'm mistaken please let me know.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#17 |
Wight
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I prefer Arothir. It sounds more noble and almost Quenya like. Has the spelling of Maedros been discussed? As in the dh or d?
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#18 |
Wight
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What about Maelor, that was a change that Tolkien sometimes made to Maglor.
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Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine." |
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#19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2002
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'Maelor' was used in the LQI (HoME 10) and in some notes which deal with Celebrimbor's lineage, which was given in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Both pre-date 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12), in which the name Maglor became fixed as his proper name.
<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:39 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]
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#20 | |
The Kinslayer
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Regarding Orodreth/Artaresto/Artaher. It seems that the correct sindarized named of Artaher is Arothir, instead of the Rodreth - Orodreth name.
But does that mean necessarily that [Orodreth] would use the correct sindarized name Arothir? Lets suppose for a moment that we should use Arothir for the name of [Orodreth]. How then can we explain the use of the name Orodreth from the Ruling Stewards of Gondor? From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix A Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#21 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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That is an excellent point that I never would have caught.
One could argue that the presence of the name "Orodreth" in LotR makes the change to "Arothir" a violation of principle 1 - that the texts published in Tolkien's lifetime are given first priority. That argument relies on the claim that there is a contradiction between the "Arothir" change and the name "Orodreth" in LotR. So we must decide whether there is such a contradiction. One could argue that "Orodreth" is a perfectly valid name for a steward of Gondor whether or not there was a First Age Orodreth. But clearly when the Appendix was written, Orodreth the Steward was intended to be named after Orodreth of Nargothrond. I'm not yet sure what to make of all this. |
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#22 | |
The Kinslayer
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A further note to take of is this:
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor Quote:
Plus the fact posted by Aiwendil that Orodreth the Steward of Gondor had that name because of [Orodreth] the King of Nargothrond.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#23 |
Late Istar
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Re-reading this thread I noticed something - in note 65 to the "Shibboleth", it is stated that in a note associated with the text, the Sindarization of "Ambarussa" is given as "Amros" rather than "Amras".
Does this mean that we should be implementing a general change Amras > Amros? Or is there a later instance of "Amras" that nullifies the change? |
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#24 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bourg-en-Bresse, Ain, France
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I think Amros to be better: it appears in The Shibboleth (c. 1968) whereas the LQ2 (where Amras is attested) is dated from about 1958 (Compare also with rhosc ‘brown’ in the Etymologies).
aravanessë |
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#25 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Welcome to the project, aravanesse!
I think you are right - in any case, the Shibboleth is certainly later than LQ2. Unless we can find another instance of the name 'Amras' in the late writings, I think we will have to implement a change to 'Amros'. |
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#26 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bourg-en-Bresse, Ain, France
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Thank you.
![]() Amros is also attested in a text dated from 1968 or later (in any cases, after the Shibboleth of Fëqnor), cf. The Problem of ROS. I have not found another references of Amras in HoMe X, XI and XII that don't belong to LQ2 or to a later text. (Moreover, what do you think about the 'five sons of Fëanor' mentioned in HoMe XI p. 329 ?) aravanessë |
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