Name Changes?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Just like to discuss a few name changes, if I may.

First of all 'Mahtan' as the name of Nerdanel's father. This is encountered in LQ II. (This, is I think, though I cant be bothered to check the first time we encounter 'Mahtan'. Nerdanel first appeard in LQ I as Istarnië.)

In notes that accompany the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' we read that Nerdanel's fathers name was what C.T thinks reads 'Sarmo' and his Epessë 'Urundil', which was more widely known. (Like 'Ereinion' was widely known by his epessë 'Gil-Galad'). Could we call him 'Urundil' or 'Sarmo Urundil' or make a note that his name was Sarmo but he was widely known as Urundil because of the copper circlet he wore on his head or just retain 'Mahtan' to avoid confusion?

'Maedhros/Maedros'-In the 'Problem of Ros' we find out that Tolkien wanted to change his name to MaedRON due to the difficulties in incorporating 'rus'-'ros' as a refernce to his red-brown hair. 'Maedros' is a combination of his mother name and nick-name, Maitimo and Russandol.

Also, the tendency of the Fëanorians in translating their mother-names, wouldn't it be better to call him Amarthan ('Fated one') then Amrod ,the Sindarin form of 'exalted'.(Of course in the Pub.Sil the twins are called Amrod (The Elder) and Amras (The Younger.)Tolkien comments on the use of Amarthan, saying 'whenever encountered' that was what was used, but what 'encountered' means I do not know, I assume it means spoken of?

Should we give their Quenya names too? I feel it would be interesting, it would also give people info. on their characters.

That is all for now.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aiwendil]

It's good to see you here again, Inderjit.

In notes that accompany the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' we read that Nerdanel's fathers name was what C.T thinks reads 'Sarmo' and his Epessë 'Urundil', which was more widely known. (Like 'Ereinion' was widely known by his epessë 'Gil-Galad'). Could we call him 'Urundil' or 'Sarmo Urundil' or make a note that his name was Sarmo but he was widely known as Urundil because of the copper circlet he wore on his head or just retain 'Mahtan' to avoid confusion?

Well. I had never noticed that "Mahtan" was discarded. I must say I rather liked the name - but of course that's irrelevant. It looks to me like "Sarmo" replaced it; so we'll have to go with "Sarmo Urundil". We can probably insert the information on his epesse from Shibboleth.

'Maedhros/Maedros'-In the 'Problem of Ros' we find out that Tolkien wanted to change his name to MaedRON due to the difficulties in incorporating 'rus'-'ros' as a refernce to his red-brown hair. 'Maedros' is a combination of his mother name and nick-name, Maitimo and Russandol.

But - and correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be - wasn't the change to "Maedron" only considered in light of the new proposal for "rus-","ros-", a proposal which failed due to Cair Andros? If so, then it must be considered rejected.

Tolkien comments on the use of Amarthan, saying 'whenever encountered' that was what was used, but what 'encountered' means I do not know, I assume it means spoken of?

Where is this found?

Since "Amrod" was retained in the Shibboleth, I'd rather stick with it, unless there's something I'm missing. And I always presumed that "Amrod" was translated not from "Umbarto" but from "Ambarto". But I guess there's no real evidence for or against this.

Should we give their Quenya names too? I feel it would be interesting, it would also give people info. on their characters.

I think it would be nice to insert this (and more) information from the Shibboleth.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But - and correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be - wasn't the change to "Maedron" only considered in light of the new proposal for "rus-","ros-", a proposal which failed due to Cair Andros? If so, then it must be considered rejected.

In the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor' Tolkien was looking at the 'translations' of the Quenya names of the Finwëans into the Sindarin names. He concluded that 'Maedros' was a combination of Maedros's mother-name, Maitimo and Russandol. (Maiti-> Northern Sindarin Maed=shapely; Russ->Ros(s)=Red-haired. (Of course here I give the meanings of the 'names' not the actual words from which they were derived from, which naturally were altered in the making of the names.) So the 'Ros' that was intended in 'Maedros' to be a reference to his red-brown hair cannot be so, since in the Appendix Tolkien states the Isle of Cair Andros means 'Ship of Long foam' and so the arguments on the Bëorian elements of 'ros' go out the window as well. Tolkien states that he would use 'Maedron' from 'now on' but he didn't get much of a chance since he was nearing the end of his life. (This was written sometime in 1968, he died in 1973.)

Where is this found? Since "Amrod" was retained in the Shibboleth, I'd rather stick with it, unless there's something I'm missing. And I always presumed that "Amrod" was translated not from "Umbarto" but from "Ambarto". But I guess there's no real evidence for or against this

[QUOTE]Amros(1) Sindarin for Ambarussa. Had Amros(2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod, but when [?encountered] at all in Sindarin form it was [?] Amarthan Fated One. S. ambart- > ammarth, amarth fate = Umbarto.
Maedros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amros, Amarthan./QUOTE]

These are the notes on the translation on the Sindarin names of the sons of Fëanor, which C.T stated were too illegible for him to print there. They are found in 'Vinyar Tengwar 39'.

[Aiwendil]

So the 'Ros' that was intended in 'Maedros' to be a reference to his red-brown hair cannot be so, since in the Appendix Tolkien states the Isle of Cair Andros means 'Ship of Long foam' and so the arguments on the Bëorian elements of 'ros' go out the window as well.

But "Maedhros" was not intended to have a Beorian etymology (obviously). The change to "Maedron" appears to be in light of the change (which failed) of "ros-" to a Beorian stem.

In other words, the original situation, the one that was preserved by the failure of the "Ros" idea, is that there are two distinct stems, one meaning "red-brown" and the other meaning "foam". Tolkien wanted to alter this so that the single meaning was "foam", and this was Beorian. But "Cair Andros" is a sindarin name, so the solution change was no good.

In other words, I think that "Maedron" is dependent on the abandoned idea, and should thus not be used.

Regarding "Amrod": the sense I get from the quote is that "Amrod" is the form to be used. It is difficult to judge what he means by "whenever encountered" (if that's even what he wrote). But it is clear that "Amrod" would have been the Sindarization of the name actually used. The difference comes down to a translation of "Ambarto" vs. a translation of "Umbarto".

Of course, this situation is different from most name decisions because in fact both names are certainly valid and the decision is not which to take as canonical but which to use when he must be referred to.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

“But "Maedhros" was not intended to have a Beorian etymology (obviously). The change to "Maedron" appears to be in light of the change (which failed) of "ros-" to a Beorian stem.
In other words, the original situation, the one that was preserved by the failure of the "Ros" idea, is that there are two distinct stems, one meaning "red-brown" and the other meaning "foam". Tolkien wanted to alter this so that the single meaning was "foam", and this was Beorian. But "Cair Andros" is a Sindarin name, so the solution change was no good.”

The change from ‘ros’ to ‘ron’ was not in light of the change of ‘ros’ from Sindarin to Bëorian (Well, not fully so) but the Sindarin meaning of ‘Ros’ as “spray; spindrift” which had been fixed by Tolkien to mean in Sindarin ‘spray/spindrift’ and hence it would have nothing to do with Maedros’s name and the element of “ros” which is meant to be a reference to his reddish-brown hair.

Of course there are several conclusions that we can reach from this. We can comment on the often ‘incorrect’ Sindarinization (If there is such a word) of the names of the Etyañgoldi (Such as say Aegnor) and so when translating his name and trying to find a Sindarin alternative, or the nearest Sindarin alternative to Ñoldorin and Telerin Quenya urus=RUSSandol, he stumbled upon or made up ‘Ros’ But this is unsatisfactory. The Sindarin form of “ros”=spray has nothing to do with the colour red and thus the two cannot be linked. Surely a Ñoldo would not make such a calamitous phonetic error especially in regards to his name? We do hear that with the exception of Maglor and Curufin the sons of Fëanor weren’t very semantically inclined but such a blunder is perplexing in my mind.

Another theory that we can come up with is the form of ’ros’ in Cair AndROS can be seen as ‘incorrect’ since in ‘Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor’ we hear;
his

“He points out that Sindarin was not well-known to many of the settlers who gave the names, mariners, soldiers, and emigrants, though all aspired to have some knowledge of it. Gondor was certainly occupied from its beginning by the Faithful, men of the Elf-friend party and their followers; and these in revolt against the ‘Adunaic' Kings who forbade the use of the Elvish tongues gave all new names in the new realm in Sindarin, or adapted older names to the manner of Sindarin. They also renewed and encouraged the study of Quenya, in which important documents, titles, and formulas were composed. But mistakes were likely to be made”

If we say that the settlers named ‘Cair Andros’ we can of course say that the ‘Ros’ stem was a mistake, perhaps stemming from the meaning of ‘Ros’ in Adûnaic (Though they had ‘revolted’ against it they may have been confused over some words or used some) or that it was a simple mis-interpretation of Sindarin Ros. Of course such a blunder is unlikely but it is more likely to come from Men of the Second/Third Age then a Ñoldorin prince. So we can keep the idea that the ’ros’ in Elros etc was a Bëorian word, and that Sindarin form of ‘ros’ meant red, and we could now if you want keep Maedros and the name would make sense. Though of course whether such a catastrophic change is possible is questionable.

Of course, this situation is different from most name decisions because in fact both names are certainly valid and the decision is not which to take as canonical but which to use when he must be referred to

Certainly, but aren’t you a firm advocate against personal opinions in regards to a Re-published Silmarillion. (I.E it shouldn’t be what you “like” better”). But ‘Amarthan’ would to me be the more ‘famous’ of the two names in consideration of his fate plus in general the sons of Fëanor tended to Sindarinize their mother names.

Of course any change of the ‘ros’ form would effect the name ‘Amros’ derived from his mother-name Ambarussa.
But I think the easiest solution could be to simply record ‘ros’ as a addition by the Ñoldor for the colour red, derived from russa.
his

[Aiwendil]

I still disagree about "Maedron". But I'm home for the weekend and so, alas, without HoMe XII; and I don't want to venture into an analysis of "Ros" without having it in front of me. So I'll get back to you regarding this whole business sometime late Tuesday or Wednesday.

And, by the way, thanks for pointing out these issues. All three (Mahtan, Maedhros, and Amrod) had escaped me completely.

[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Aiwendil]

Okay, I've been reunited with my books.

The change from ‘ros’ to ‘ron’ was not in light of the change of ‘ros’ from Sindarin to Bëorian (Well, not fully so) but the Sindarin meaning of ‘Ros’ as “spray; spindrift” which had been fixed by Tolkien to mean in Sindarin ‘spray/spindrift’ and hence it would have nothing to do with Maedros’s name and the element of “ros” which is meant to be a reference to his reddish-brown hair.

My understanding is this. Originally there were to be two separate Eldarin stems, one meaning "reddish-brown" and the other meaning "spray/spindrift". The change proposed in "Ros" is that there is only one stem, meaning "spray", and that this is Beorian. But this had to be dropped because of "Cair Andros".

So as I see it the change of "Maedhros" to "Maedron" does depend on the change in "The Problem of Ros".

If we decide to use "Maedron" we are essentially electing to keep half of the change. But my impression is that the whole idea was rejected.

Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say.

Certainly, but aren’t you a firm advocate against personal opinions in regards to a Re-published Silmarillion. (I.E it shouldn’t be what you “like” better”).

Quite so. My point was just that, whether we call him "Amarthan" or "Amrod", we are in no case violating the "true" or canonical pseudo-history. It's more a matter of style than of canon. Of course that doesn't mean we can ignore it. You're right that the sons of Feanor tended to Sindarinize their mother-names, but in a sense, "Amrod" is a Sindarinization of his mother-name. For "Ambarto" was the mother-name he was actually known by prior to his death, "Umbarto" being the true but unused form.

That note is really quite mystifying, though - what could be meant by "when encountered at all"? Does it mean that the Noldor called him "Amarthan" after his death? Or does it mean that texts call him "Amarthan"?

Do you know roughly when that note was written?

All this may be somewhat moot, though; there will not be so very many occasions to refer to Amrod other than at his birth and at his death, in both of which cases his names will play a central role (and hence they will not necessitate a simple Amrod/Amarthan decision).

[Inderjit Sanghera]

My understanding is this. Originally there were to be two separate Eldarin stems, one meaning "reddish-brown" and the other meaning "spray/spindrift". The change proposed in "Ros" is that there is only one stem, meaning "spray", and that this is Beorian. But this had to be dropped because of "Cair Andros".

Yes-but one wonders why the word -ros has two entirely different meanings? Tolkien comments on this in the Problem or Ros.

Of course we could just say that -ros had two unconnected meanings, regardless of whether or not this makes any sense, claim as is said in 'Of Dwarves and Men' and 'Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor' that the rendering of the names within Gondor was inncaurate because of the inadequate knowledge of Sindarin of the people who named the places in Gondor and so and so keep -ros as a word for the colour red, and -ros also as a Bëorian word for spray/spindrift.

Nonetheless it's an interesting question and I'm eager to hear what others have to say.

As am I. It would be helpful if a language expert interjected, or anyone from this forum, it would be nice for other opinions, beside mine and yours.

You're right that the sons of Feanor tended to Sindarinize their mother-names, but in a sense, "Amrod" is a Sindarinization of his mother-name. For "Ambarto" was the mother-name he was actually known by prior to his death, "Umbarto" being the true but unused form

No one really called him A/Umbarto. They called each other Ambarussa, and everyone else called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa. Fëanor of course would have adress them by their father names. Maybe when they went to Formenos, they were adress by their father names, a large part of that host being wholly loyal to Fëanor and thus adopt his cutoms?

Of course, one can see the sensibility of adopting 'Amrod' rather then 'Amarthan', since it was his 'proper' name, but I think Amarthan would have been the one that was remembered because of his fate.

Does it mean that the Noldor called him "Amarthan" after his death? Or does it mean that texts call him "Amarthan"?

I think it does means both. If he was called Amarthan then surely it would have been written so, by the Ñoldorin scribes or the Númenóreans.

Do you know roughly when that note was written?

Same time as the Shibboleth, c.1968.

[Aiwendil]

Of course we could just say that -ros had two unconnected meanings, regardless of whether or not this makes any sense, claim as is said in 'Of Dwarves and Men' and 'Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor' that the rendering of the names within Gondor was inncaurate because of the inadequate knowledge of Sindarin of the people who named the places in Gondor and so and so keep -ros as a word for the colour red, and -ros also as a Bëorian word for spray/spindrift.

You seem to be assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that if "ros" has two distinct meanings, then one must be from Beorian and one from Sindarin.

But prior to the writing of "The Problem of Ros", it had two distinct meanings, both in Sindarin; and in fact these two senses, according to the Etymologies, are from different stems. One is ROS- and the other RUS-. In fact, Etymologies even has some instances of the same stem bearing two distinct meanings; there is, for example, another ROS- meaning "plain".

So what I had been assuming, in light of the rejection of the revised "Ros" idea, is that we would return to the situation where ROS- refers to "spray/spindrift" and RUS- to "reddish-brown, copper". In this case, "Maedhros", "Russandol", "Ambarussa", and so on, can all be retained alongside "Cair Andros", "Elros", etc.

The other option is to eliminate the RUS- stem and leave ROS- as it is. But it is perhaps significant that this solution (which would seem the simplest) was never proposed by Tolkien. It would also leave us in a difficult spot with regard to other names and words derived from RUS-. For "Maedhros" we have a possible replacement, but not for "Russandol", "Ambarussa", or anything else.

As am I. It would be helpful if a language expert interjected, or anyone from this forum, it would be nice for other opinions, beside mine and yours.

Alas that Jallanite lost interest in the project!

No one really called him A/Umbarto. They called each other Ambarussa, and everyone else called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa. Fëanor of course would have adress them by their father names.

I think it's possible that he was referred to by his mother-name sometimes in Valinor. Would not Nerdanel have called him by it? Also, it seems unlikely that the sons of Feanor would Sindarize their mother-names rather than their father-names if the former had never been used.

[Arothir]

Just a thought no one's mentioned, but Orodreth should be changed to Arothir, and he is the son of angrod, not finarfin. I can't find where it says this, but it's in the note on Gil-galad's parentage in PoME.

[Findegil]

Arothir is one of his names. But Orodreth is still valid when we follow "The decendents of Finwë" in "The shibboleth of Fëanor" where Arothir is given.

In the case of his parentage you are clearly right.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arothir]

Yes, but Tolkien in one of his notes to shibboleth refers to Gil-galad being the son of Arothir, who is said to be Felagund's nephew and steward.

[Arothir]

Forgive that last post, I was missing the point. Orodreth is not a valid name. In genealogies around the time but perhaps before the Shibboleth, he is called in Quenya Artaresto and in Sindarin Orodreth. This later becomes in Quenya Artaher and in Sindarin Arothir. This can be found in the note on Gilgalad's parentage in POME

[Aiwendil]

I thought that "Arothir" was his proper Sindarin name and "Orodreth" an epesse given due to his love for the mountains. I am inclined to think that "Orodreth" is still valid. But I may be wrong. I will have to look at Shibboleth again.

[Arothir]

You are thinking of his name Artaresto, which in Sindarin is Rodreth which became Orodreth for his love of the mountains.

[Maédhros]

From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

The names of Sindarin form by which they were usually called in later song and legend were Finrod, Angrod (with wife Eðellos and son Arothir), Aegnor, and Galadriel.
In names however that ended in old words referring to status, rank, profession, race or kindred and so on the adjectival element still in Sindarin, following ancient models, might be placed first. Quenya Artaher (stem artahēr-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothir.
The name of Angrod's son (still retaining the identity of 'Orodreth') was then changed from Artanáro to Artaresto. In an isolated note found with the genealogies, scribbled at great speed but nonetheless dated, August 1965, my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's parentage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth', who is here given the Quenya name of Artaresto, and continued:
Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
The words that I cannot read contain apparently a preposition and a proper name, and this latter could be faroth (the High Faroth west of the river Narog). - In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's Mouth'. The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'.

It seems that as Arothir suggests, the Sindarized name of Orodreth is indeed Arothir and that Orodreth is not an epessë, leaving therefore Orodreth as an invalid name.
By some strange reason I find myself liking the name Orodreth, so if I'm mistaken please let me know.

[Arothir]

I prefer Arothir. It sounds more noble and almost Quenya like. Has the spelling of Maedros been discussed? As in the dh or d?

[Arothir]

What about Maelor, that was a change that Tolkien sometimes made to Maglor.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

'Maelor' was used in the LQI (HoME 10) and in some notes which deal with Celebrimbor's lineage, which was given in the appendix to 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Both pre-date 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor (HoME 12), in which the name Maglor became fixed as his proper name.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:39 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Maédhros]

Regarding Orodreth/Artaresto/Artaher. It seems that the correct sindarized named of Artaher is Arothir, instead of the Rodreth - Orodreth name.
But does that mean necessarily that [Orodreth] would use the correct sindarized name Arothir? Lets suppose for a moment that we should use Arothir for the name of [Orodreth]. How then can we explain the use of the name Orodreth from the Ruling Stewards of Gondor?
From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix A

Hallas 2605, Húrin II 2628, Belecthor I 2655, Orodreth 2685, Ecthelion I 2698, Egalmoth 2743, Beren 2763, Beregond 2811, Belecthor II 2872, Thorondir 2882, Túrin II 2914, Turgon 2953, Ecthelion II 2984, Denethor II. He was the last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar, F.A. 82.

[Aiwendil]

That is an excellent point that I never would have caught.

One could argue that the presence of the name "Orodreth" in LotR makes the change to "Arothir" a violation of principle 1 - that the texts published in Tolkien's lifetime are given first priority. That argument relies on the claim that there is a contradiction between the "Arothir" change and the name "Orodreth" in LotR.

So we must decide whether there is such a contradiction.

One could argue that "Orodreth" is a perfectly valid name for a steward of Gondor whether or not there was a First Age Orodreth. But clearly when the Appendix was written, Orodreth the Steward was intended to be named after Orodreth of Nargothrond.

I'm not yet sure what to make of all this.

[Maédhros]

A further note to take of is this:
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor

The Sindarizing of these names as Fingon and Turgon shows knowledge of the sound-changes distinguishing Sindarin from Telerin, but disregards meaning. If these names had actually been ancient Sindarin names they would at the time of the coming of the Exiles have taken the forms Fingon and Turgon, but they would not have had their Quenya meanings, if interpretable at all. Possibly they would have conveyed 'Hair-shout' and 'Master-shout' [see note 36]. But this did not matter much since old Sindarin names had by that time frequently become obscured by sound-changes and were taken as names and not analysed.

This can be interpreted to mean that while Arothir is the correct sindarized name of [Orodreth], that does not mean that it was the one that was used, because as said in the previous quote, some of the old Sindarin names had been obscured by sound-changes and were taken as name and not analysed.
Plus the fact posted by Aiwendil that Orodreth the Steward of Gondor had that name because of [Orodreth] the King of Nargothrond.

[Aiwendil]

Re-reading this thread I noticed something - in note 65 to the "Shibboleth", it is stated that in a note associated with the text, the Sindarization of "Ambarussa" is given as "Amros" rather than "Amras".

Does this mean that we should be implementing a general change Amras > Amros? Or is there a later instance of "Amras" that nullifies the change?

[aravanessë]

I think Amros to be better: it appears in The Shibboleth (c. 1968) whereas the LQ2 (where Amras is attested) is dated from about 1958 (Compare also with rhosc ‘brown’ in the Etymologies).

aravanessë

[Aiwendil]

Welcome to the project, aravanesse!

I think you are right - in any case, the Shibboleth is certainly later than LQ2. Unless we can find another instance of the name 'Amras' in the late writings, I think we will have to implement a change to 'Amros'.

[aravanessë]

Thank you.

Amros is also attested in a text dated from 1968 or later (in any cases, after the Shibboleth of Fëqnor), cf. The Problem of ROS.
I have not found another references of Amras in HoMe X, XI and XII that don't belong to LQ2 or to a later text.
(Moreover, what do you think about the 'five sons of Fëanor' mentioned in HoMe XI p. 329 ?)

aravanessë