The Witch-King and the Barrow-Downs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Marroc Underhill · 09-28-2003, 02:47 PM

During the War of the Ring, do you think the Witch-King still controled the Barrow-Downs? Or do you think he just didn't pay any attention to them? Did the Barrow-Wights still fear there old master? Tell me your thoughts or corrections to my stupidity.

Thank You
Marroc

FingolfintheBold · 09-28-2003, 04:25 PM

First of all, this is pure speculation on my part, but i always thought that even if the wights were no longer under Sauron's direct influence, they could still be alive and would be prompt to do evil.

As we know, attacks of evil things raged all over ME in the war of the ring, and on every front. Mirkwood became more evil and it's beasts and creatures attacked the woodmen, Lorien fended off attacks from Moria, etc. Perhaps there was some sort of "battle" at the Barrow-downs as well, even if it was more a striving of wills bettween Tom and the evil wights. Aragorn refers to evils that would lay Bree and the Shire in ruins if it were not ceaslessly gaurded, Maybe he was refering to the wights?

Marroc Underhill · 09-28-2003, 04:34 PM

Good point! Never though of it that way! Thanks!

Finwe · 09-28-2003, 05:27 PM

During the War of the Ring, Sauron was calling all evil things to him. Since the Barrow Wights couldn't just pack up and move, they could "follow his orders" in another way. They could have indeed been part of the horrors that the Dunedain protected the Shire from. I think that the Dunedain also protected the Shire (and Bree) from things like Orcs, and they valiantly tried to keep the Nazgul from entering. Unfortunately, most of the "marchwardens of the Shire" were driven away by a detachment of the Nazgul, while the others went after Frodo. I think that was the only reason that the Wraiths got through. Otherwise, the Dunedain would have stopped them, or held them back long enough for Frodo to escape (if he realized what was going on at all).

Iarhen · 09-28-2003, 07:18 PM

I never fully understood the nature of the Wights... can somebody explain me?

I doubt that the Witch King had anything under control... He had command over the other 8 Nazgul thanks to Sauron...

I doubt that Gorthaur had control over the Wights... They were evil in their own and independent way...

Eitherway, my fascination with the Witch King of Angmar grows ever stronger...

ainur · 09-29-2003, 06:37 PM

I'm at work and don't have my books with me right now so I can't provide any quotes. In Unfinished Tales, "The Quest of Erebor" as well as in the timeline in the appendices to Return of the King, it says that the Witch King entered the Barrow Downs on (I think) Sept. 23 or 24(approximately--as I said, I don't have my books with me) to awaken the Wights and stir up the evil things of the Old Forest to be on the look-out. (I've always felt this is why Tom Bombadil kept the hobbits busy in his house telling stories for a day while Goldberry 'did her washing'--he would have known that the Witch King was still on the Downs.)
Back on subject. Yes, the witch king still had control over the Barrow Wights, as much as he ever did, as much as Sauron had control over him.

The real question is how? The Barrow-Wights were all once men. Not even the Valar can with-hold the gift of Iluvatar. So how could the Witch-King keep the Prince of Cardolan et al trapped in a Barrow for thousands of years?

[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ]

FingolfintheBold · 09-29-2003, 06:44 PM

As for the nature of wights, there are others that could explain it better than I, but see how this helps:

During the long war bettween the Dunedain of the North and the Witch King of Angmar(Lord of the Nazgul), many men died on both sides, good and evil. The Dunedain of that time buried their lords and captains in barrows. There were a great number of these graves in the country along the downs and further north as well, especially after the great plauges that the Witch King unleashed upon his enemies. After a long time, when the wars were over and the dunedain all but extinct, Sauron's power began to grow, and evil spirits of either his making or nurturing came into the barrows and inhabited the dead bones of the forgotten kings. With the spirits came the dark magic of the witch king. Now the evil Barrow-Wights prowell their dark graves, casting a shadow of fear over the lands about, capturing stray wanderers and puting them under with dread-incantations.

We dont know of any physical confrontations with them, but it could have happened, and i can certainly imagine great powers like Bombadil and Gandalf striving with them.

09-28-2003, 02:47 PM	#1
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	The Witch-King and the Barrow-Downs During the War of the Ring, do you think the Witch-King still controled the Barrow-Downs? Or do you think he just didn't pay any attention to them? Did the Barrow-Wights still fear there old master? Tell me your thoughts or corrections to my stupidity. Thank You Marroc __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

09-28-2003, 04:25 PM	#2
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	First of all, this is pure speculation on my part, but i always thought that even if the wights were no longer under Sauron's direct influence, they could still be alive and would be prompt to do evil. As we know, attacks of evil things raged all over ME in the war of the ring, and on every front. Mirkwood became more evil and it's beasts and creatures attacked the woodmen, Lorien fended off attacks from Moria, etc. Perhaps there was some sort of "battle" at the Barrow-downs as well, even if it was more a striving of wills bettween Tom and the evil wights. Aragorn refers to evils that would lay Bree and the Shire in ruins if it were not ceaslessly gaurded, Maybe he was refering to the wights? __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

09-28-2003, 04:34 PM	#3
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	Good point! Never though of it that way! Thanks! __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

09-28-2003, 05:27 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	During the War of the Ring, Sauron was calling all evil things to him. Since the Barrow Wights couldn't just pack up and move, they could "follow his orders" in another way. They could have indeed been part of the horrors that the Dunedain protected the Shire from. I think that the Dunedain also protected the Shire (and Bree) from things like Orcs, and they valiantly tried to keep the Nazgul from entering. Unfortunately, most of the "marchwardens of the Shire" were driven away by a detachment of the Nazgul, while the others went after Frodo. I think that was the only reason that the Wraiths got through. Otherwise, the Dunedain would have stopped them, or held them back long enough for Frodo to escape (if he realized what was going on at all). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-28-2003, 07:18 PM	#5
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	I never fully understood the nature of the Wights... can somebody explain me? I doubt that the Witch King had anything under control... He had command over the other 8 Nazgul thanks to Sauron... I doubt that Gorthaur had control over the Wights... They were evil in their own and independent way... Eitherway, my fascination with the Witch King of Angmar grows ever stronger... __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

09-29-2003, 06:37 PM	#6
ainur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis MN Posts: 72	I'm at work and don't have my books with me right now so I can't provide any quotes. In Unfinished Tales, "The Quest of Erebor" as well as in the timeline in the appendices to Return of the King, it says that the Witch King entered the Barrow Downs on (I think) Sept. 23 or 24(approximately--as I said, I don't have my books with me) to awaken the Wights and stir up the evil things of the Old Forest to be on the look-out. (I've always felt this is why Tom Bombadil kept the hobbits busy in his house telling stories for a day while Goldberry 'did her washing'--he would have known that the Witch King was still on the Downs.) Back on subject. Yes, the witch king still had control over the Barrow Wights, as much as he ever did, as much as Sauron had control over him. The real question is how? The Barrow-Wights were all once men. Not even the Valar can with-hold the gift of Iluvatar. So how could the Witch-King keep the Prince of Cardolan et al trapped in a Barrow for thousands of years? [ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ] __________________ Yet all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

09-29-2003, 06:44 PM	#7
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	As for the nature of wights, there are others that could explain it better than I, but see how this helps: During the long war bettween the Dunedain of the North and the Witch King of Angmar(Lord of the Nazgul), many men died on both sides, good and evil. The Dunedain of that time buried their lords and captains in barrows. There were a great number of these graves in the country along the downs and further north as well, especially after the great plauges that the Witch King unleashed upon his enemies. After a long time, when the wars were over and the dunedain all but extinct, Sauron's power began to grow, and evil spirits of either his making or nurturing came into the barrows and inhabited the dead bones of the forgotten kings. With the spirits came the dark magic of the witch king. Now the evil Barrow-Wights prowell their dark graves, casting a shadow of fear over the lands about, capturing stray wanderers and puting them under with dread-incantations. We dont know of any physical confrontations with them, but it could have happened, and i can certainly imagine great powers like Bombadil and Gandalf striving with them. __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?