Those Crazy Ainur... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

tom bombariffic · 12-29-2002, 01:07 PM

Hello all,

I was thinking about the Istari (as you do), and about the few interventions manwe and his fellow valar, and I cant figure out what they're doing! The Ainur of the undying lands invervened in matters of middle-earth only a few times, such as causing the destrucion of Numenor (not strictly middle earth) and the chaining of Melkor&destruction of Angband. This is because, in general, they dont want to imterfere with middle earth, and leave as much as possible to the actual people of middle earth.
But in the case of the war of the ring, they apeared to make a considerably lacklustre approach to stopping Sauron. They didn't deem the case of the rings important enough to intervene themselves (manwe, tulkas & co could have kicked saurons arse and shoved his ring up it in about 5 seconds flat), but instead they sent 5 maiar (the Istari) over to try and solve the problem themselves, which would clearly take hundreds of years longer, cause countless deaths, and a lot of bother. If they considered it important enough for their intervention, why not do it properly and take matters into their own hands? Not that Im insulting the Ainur of Aman, nor Gandalf and the Istari - it just seems like a lot of bother when they could have sorted it out right away.

If anyone has any opinions on this, please reply.

Bombariffic

Iarwain · 12-29-2002, 01:18 PM

Great statement, Tom. I think the only real answer is just that that's what they did. You can of course go into a whole load of detail and give them the excuses of not wanting to sink another portion of middle earth, not wanting to overwhelm the people's of Middle-Earth with all of their splendor and glory, or you could just say that they didn't quite like men as much as the first born. I suppose that if they did intervene, and brought in all of the Vanyar and Teleri and Noldor and Maiar, all for a few thousand people, it would be sort of a waste. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Of course, a real solid explaination would be that after the Numenor disaster, the Valar removed valinor from Middle Earth for a reason. They were done with the sorrows of the world, and would wait for the final battle and the end...

Pondering carefully,
Iarwain

tom bombariffic · 12-29-2002, 02:19 PM

Yeah its clear that they didnt want to interfere, they almost forsook middle earth, but then why would they send the istari to sort it out? I suppose they could have sent them to help the people of middle earth fight back, thus making sure that sauron was defeated, but through the efforts of the people, with the istari just giving them "a little nudge out of the door", as gandalf would say.

Curulin · 12-29-2002, 03:57 PM

Precisely, the Istari were not sent by the valar to defeat Sauron, but to aid the peoples of middle earth in their struggle against him. They were there to show them what they were really capable of and to persuade them to stand up against him.
I think the reason for this is because the Valar had remoed themseles, and their lands, from Middle-earth, and did therefore not want to interfere too much in its affairs. However, they did not want it to be ruined and ruled by a second dark lord, so they sent the istari down as emmiseries to show them the way.
Curulin

doug*platypus · 12-30-2002, 05:08 AM

I love the name of this thread, Bom, good work. I can call you Bom, can't I? No? Oh, sorry.

Quote:

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.
Teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever.

Gandalf. Fishing instructor supreme. Makes Bilbo a hero, makes Frodo a hero, makes Sam a hero, you see where I'm going...

Also, I think the Third Age conflict was considerably wider than the First Age one. If the Valar/Maiar waged war, they would have risked scaring the wits out of the Haradrim and the Easterlings (of course I'm working on the very fuzzy assumption that the war would have been waged at the time of the War of the Ring). Many would have been destroyed, and Iluvatar would not have been a happy camper, possibly grounding the Valar with loss of all TV privileges. Maybe the Istari were sent to find a possible peaceful solution? Not very likely considering the bloodiness of all the tales, but is it possible?

Pallando B.C · 12-30-2002, 05:18 AM

Quote:

(manwe, tulkas & co could have kicked saurons arse and shoved his ring up it in about 5 seconds flat),

I'm not sure whether to laugh or not......

Nice anology by the way, doug?

tom bombariffic · 12-30-2002, 08:34 AM

Haha no, I didnt mean the sauron thing literaly, that would just be disturbing...

Yeah I think that is the likely solution, that they wanted to help without actually defeating sauron themselves, but i dunno if they would have been worried about scaring the people of middle-earth, they would just have been relieved at the end of it all, and most of the deaths caused would have been those of evil beings; far less good people would have died than did. In the end though I suppose they knew what they were doing.

Bombariffic (or Bom if you prefer, doug)

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: tom bombariffic ]

**lindil** · 12-30-2002, 09:02 AM

seems to me they were being 'Wise', by effecting the greatest possible change with the least amount of effort [ or better to say[ influence.

They knew that the Elves were fading and that the Numenorean kingdoms needed a shot in the arm.

So what better way than to send 'advisors'?

Tirinor · 12-30-2002, 09:59 AM

The conclusion of The Return of the King proves the wisdom of their strategy - kingdom restored, decisive victories, white tree found, friendship between Elves and Dwarves, yadda yadda yadda.

Direct action, i.e. Tulkas taking Sauron out behind the shed, would have served only to maintain the ME status quo. And the ME status quo wasn't too glorious or promising.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tirinor ]

Ithaeliel · 12-30-2002, 12:14 PM

In my personal opinion, the Valar would not have needed to intervene had not certain circumstances arisen.

I suppose that once the advisors arrived in Middle-earth and began their task, the Valar put their faith in that and turned away from the matter. Yet Saruman joined forces with Sauron, strenghtening the enemy and weakening the Free Peoples. I suppose had not his happened, there would not have been as many deaths and things would not have gone so awry. Saruman was meant to fight against Sauron, not with him. I suppose the Valar might have been a little late in seeing that. Maybe they just didn't find it a large enough matter. I'm not sure. Good question, though.

Luinsewiel · 01-01-2003, 12:06 PM

This is completely off topic, but, Sauron didn't have an arse to kick, he was a disembodied eye. LOL I'm on a LOTR/Sugar/Sleep depravation high, don't mind me [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Nenya · 01-01-2003, 03:43 PM

And, once again: if they hadn't done that we wouldn't have one of the greatest stories ever. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
We could also ask "What's the point in sending Jesus down to earth" ,with God being assumed as allmighty and all that... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: Nenya ]

doug*platypus · 01-02-2003, 03:38 AM

...whoa! Deep! I think in that two sentence post really grabbed my attention.

I agree with Tirinor that the Istari solution turned out much better than the War of Wrath solution would have. The Valar did indeed make a good call, especially when they chose Olorin/Gandalf to go. They had obviously matured since the First Age. I think Nenya is right too, in drawing a parallel between the Valar sending the Istari and God sending Jesus. It was a real change from God's old smiting policy, where he'd just wipe out any nations that got in his peoples' way. War of Wrath, Old Testament. Istari, New Testament. Pretty thin analogy, but interesting!

Telchar · 01-02-2003, 04:33 AM

Just for the record: The Valar didnt withdraw Aman/Valinor from ME - Iluvatar did. The Valar laid down the government of Arda When Tar Calion set foot upon the holy land and Iluvatar changed the Fasion of the world.

Curulin · 01-02-2003, 04:47 AM

Its interesting of you to make that analogy doug, there are lots of other parallels there too, like Gandalf being resurected, a bit like Jesus was...
sorry, just caught my eye.
Curulin

Legolas · 01-02-2003, 12:48 PM

I'm sure Tulkas, Eonwe, Manwe, and Ulmo would've been able to take Sauron, but why would they?

Morgoth was a fight that belonged to the Valar. Sauron was a different matter. Sure, the Valar could've sent their forces to dispose of Sauron quickly, but why?

Middle-earth had to prove itself. The Istari were sent to guide Middle-earth; to impart wisdom - not to face-off with Sauron and do all of the fighting for them. Middle-earth would've gained nothing, and another evil would've arisen for them to contend with. Middle-earth cries to Aman. The Valar save the day again. Another evil comes. Middle-earth cries again...get the point? If the Valar had to save the peoples of Middle-earth, they'd never learn the importance of sticking together and keeping hope. There'd be no point in Middle-earth existing if the people there never learned how to defeat evil.

akhtene · 01-02-2003, 07:21 PM

Besides everything posted above (and with most of it I agree wholeheartedly) the Valar seem to behave quite knightly, observing the ballance of strength. When Morgoth was alive and kicking, the Valar went to battle themselves. As Sauron was 'only' a Maia and really unable to fight in person (being disembodied and shapeless), so the Valar's emissars weren't allowed to use force, but only to teach, advise and inspire - the same means used by Sauron actually. And his armies could be well dealt with by Elves and Men.

12-29-2002, 01:07 PM	#1
tom bombariffic Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic Posts: 196	Those Crazy Ainur... Hello all, I was thinking about the Istari (as you do), and about the few interventions manwe and his fellow valar, and I cant figure out what they're doing! The Ainur of the undying lands invervened in matters of middle-earth only a few times, such as causing the destrucion of Numenor (not strictly middle earth) and the chaining of Melkor&destruction of Angband. This is because, in general, they dont want to imterfere with middle earth, and leave as much as possible to the actual people of middle earth. But in the case of the war of the ring, they apeared to make a considerably lacklustre approach to stopping Sauron. They didn't deem the case of the rings important enough to intervene themselves (manwe, tulkas & co could have kicked saurons arse and shoved his ring up it in about 5 seconds flat), but instead they sent 5 maiar (the Istari) over to try and solve the problem themselves, which would clearly take hundreds of years longer, cause countless deaths, and a lot of bother. If they considered it important enough for their intervention, why not do it properly and take matters into their own hands? Not that Im insulting the Ainur of Aman, nor Gandalf and the Istari - it just seems like a lot of bother when they could have sorted it out right away. If anyone has any opinions on this, please reply. Bombariffic __________________ The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.

12-29-2002, 01:18 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Great statement, Tom. I think the only real answer is just that that's what they did. You can of course go into a whole load of detail and give them the excuses of not wanting to sink another portion of middle earth, not wanting to overwhelm the people's of Middle-Earth with all of their splendor and glory, or you could just say that they didn't quite like men as much as the first born. I suppose that if they did intervene, and brought in all of the Vanyar and Teleri and Noldor and Maiar, all for a few thousand people, it would be sort of a waste. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Of course, a real solid explaination would be that after the Numenor disaster, the Valar removed valinor from Middle Earth for a reason. They were done with the sorrows of the world, and would wait for the final battle and the end... Pondering carefully, Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

12-29-2002, 02:19 PM	#3
tom bombariffic Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic Posts: 196	Yeah its clear that they didnt want to interfere, they almost forsook middle earth, but then why would they send the istari to sort it out? I suppose they could have sent them to help the people of middle earth fight back, thus making sure that sauron was defeated, but through the efforts of the people, with the istari just giving them "a little nudge out of the door", as gandalf would say. __________________ The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.

12-29-2002, 03:57 PM	#4
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Precisely, the Istari were not sent by the valar to defeat Sauron, but to aid the peoples of middle earth in their struggle against him. They were there to show them what they were really capable of and to persuade them to stand up against him. I think the reason for this is because the Valar had remoed themseles, and their lands, from Middle-earth, and did therefore not want to interfere too much in its affairs. However, they did not want it to be ruined and ruled by a second dark lord, so they sent the istari down as emmiseries to show them the way. Curulin __________________ Well, I'm back.

12-30-2002, 08:34 AM	#7
tom bombariffic Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic Posts: 196	Haha no, I didnt mean the sauron thing literaly, that would just be disturbing... Yeah I think that is the likely solution, that they wanted to help without actually defeating sauron themselves, but i dunno if they would have been worried about scaring the people of middle-earth, they would just have been relieved at the end of it all, and most of the deaths caused would have been those of evil beings; far less good people would have died than did. In the end though I suppose they knew what they were doing. Bombariffic (or Bom if you prefer, doug) [ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: tom bombariffic ] __________________ The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.

12-30-2002, 09:02 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	seems to me they were being 'Wise', by effecting the greatest possible change with the least amount of effort [ or better to say[ influence. They knew that the Elves were fading and that the Numenorean kingdoms needed a shot in the arm. So what better way than to send 'advisors'? __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

12-30-2002, 09:59 AM	#9
Tirinor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Alabama, U.S.A. Posts: 90	The conclusion of The Return of the King proves the wisdom of their strategy - kingdom restored, decisive victories, white tree found, friendship between Elves and Dwarves, yadda yadda yadda. Direct action, i.e. Tulkas taking Sauron out behind the shed, would have served only to maintain the ME status quo. And the ME status quo wasn't too glorious or promising. [ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tirinor ] __________________ War Eagle.

12-30-2002, 12:14 PM	#10
Ithaeliel Cornus Caliga Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here Posts: 710	In my personal opinion, the Valar would not have needed to intervene had not certain circumstances arisen. I suppose that once the advisors arrived in Middle-earth and began their task, the Valar put their faith in that and turned away from the matter. Yet Saruman joined forces with Sauron, strenghtening the enemy and weakening the Free Peoples. I suppose had not his happened, there would not have been as many deaths and things would not have gone so awry. Saruman was meant to fight against Sauron, not with him. I suppose the Valar might have been a little late in seeing that. Maybe they just didn't find it a large enough matter. I'm not sure. Good question, though. __________________ That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. .................William Wordsworth

01-01-2003, 12:06 PM	#11
Luinsewiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Great Grey-Green Greasy Limpopo River, All Set About With Fever Trees Posts: 57	This is completely off topic, but, Sauron didn't have an arse to kick, he was a disembodied eye. LOL I'm on a LOTR/Sugar/Sleep depravation high, don't mind me [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Take David Suzuki's nature challenge today ---> www.davidsuzuki.org

01-01-2003, 03:43 PM	#12
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	And, once again: if they hadn't done that we wouldn't have one of the greatest stories ever. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] We could also ask "What's the point in sending Jesus down to earth" ,with God being assumed as allmighty and all that... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: Nenya ]

01-02-2003, 03:38 AM	#13
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	...whoa! Deep! I think in that two sentence post really grabbed my attention. I agree with Tirinor that the Istari solution turned out much better than the War of Wrath solution would have. The Valar did indeed make a good call, especially when they chose Olorin/Gandalf to go. They had obviously matured since the First Age. I think Nenya is right too, in drawing a parallel between the Valar sending the Istari and God sending Jesus. It was a real change from God's old smiting policy, where he'd just wipe out any nations that got in his peoples' way. War of Wrath, Old Testament. Istari, New Testament. Pretty thin analogy, but interesting! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-02-2003, 04:33 AM	#14
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Just for the record: The Valar didnt withdraw Aman/Valinor from ME - Iluvatar did. The Valar laid down the government of Arda When Tar Calion set foot upon the holy land and Iluvatar changed the Fasion of the world. __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

01-02-2003, 04:47 AM	#15
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Its interesting of you to make that analogy doug, there are lots of other parallels there too, like Gandalf being resurected, a bit like Jesus was... sorry, just caught my eye. Curulin __________________ Well, I'm back.

01-02-2003, 12:48 PM	#16
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I'm sure Tulkas, Eonwe, Manwe, and Ulmo would've been able to take Sauron, but why would they? Morgoth was a fight that belonged to the Valar. Sauron was a different matter. Sure, the Valar could've sent their forces to dispose of Sauron quickly, but why? Middle-earth had to prove itself. The Istari were sent to guide Middle-earth; to impart wisdom - not to face-off with Sauron and do all of the fighting for them. Middle-earth would've gained nothing, and another evil would've arisen for them to contend with. Middle-earth cries to Aman. The Valar save the day again. Another evil comes. Middle-earth cries again...get the point? If the Valar had to save the peoples of Middle-earth, they'd never learn the importance of sticking together and keeping hope. There'd be no point in Middle-earth existing if the people there never learned how to defeat evil. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-02-2003, 07:21 PM	#17
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Besides everything posted above (and with most of it I agree wholeheartedly) the Valar seem to behave quite knightly, observing the ballance of strength. When Morgoth was alive and kicking, the Valar went to battle themselves. As Sauron was 'only' a Maia and really unable to fight in person (being disembodied and shapeless), so the Valar's emissars weren't allowed to use force, but only to teach, advise and inspire - the same means used by Sauron actually. And his armies could be well dealt with by Elves and Men. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...