Would Arwen's children get a choice between mortality and immortality?

[Galadel Vinorel]

My friend asked me the other day if, since Arwen got a choice whether or not to kep her immortality, then would her children also get the same choice? So, could some of Arwen and Aragorn's children be mortal, while the other would be immortal? Tolkien never really seems to answer this question inhis books, so I ws wondering if any of you could help me. Thanks!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Arwen Imladris]

Hmmm, good question. Arwen did have a choice, she could either stay imortal or she could become mortel and marry Aragorn. I don't think that there kids had a choice because both parents were mortals. If you know about Elros, Elrond's brother, he and Elrond are both half elven, they both had a choice, Elrond chose elf and Elros chose man. Elros' decendence where the numenoreans. They could not choose but they had longer life then most men.

[Mister Underhill]

Good question, and an answer that I would tend to agree with. Just noting here that I rewrote your subject line, Galadel, to make it more indicative of the contents of the thread.

General subject lines like, "Why?" and "I have a question" should be avoided.

[Gorothlammothiel]

Personally I do not believe that their children would have the choice of immortality. I think it possible however that because of the elven blood in both Aragorn and Arwen, and the blood of the Numenor, that the children would be given longer life than most, although not to the extent that Aragorn had...

[Arwen Imladris]

Well, they might actually live longer, because Arwen in half elf. Wouldn't it be the same sort of thing as what happend to Elros? Elros' kids lived even longer as Aragorn. What do you think? Is it writen anywhere how long Aragorn's kids lived?

[Gayametwen]

Arwen was sprung by Elrond and Galadriel...then why would she be half elf? I belive that their children wouldn't have the choice of immortality becuase Arwen chose not to be immortal and Aragorn was GRANTED to have a longer life and he grew up as Elrond's son when his mother ran to Rivendell for refuge if thats what you call it.

[Childlike Empress]

Sprung? Galadriel? Gayametwen, it sounds like you're trying to say that Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and Galadriel, which is only remotely true in a technical sense, since Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother.

Arwen would actually be 3/4 Elf, since Elrond was Half-Elven and Celebrian was a full Elf. Arwen's children would most likely have very long lifespans (certainly longer than Aragorn's), but they would be completely mortal and have no choice about it.

[GildorInglorion]

Elrond i called Half-elf in the book, yes, but he once was allowed a chice, Mortal or elven, and he chose Elven. So in my opinion Arwen is 100% elf.

Elros and Aragorn are of the same blood, long-living humans. But I think Elros married a "normal" human woman, not a converted elf. So technically, Aragorn's children should live longer then the first kings of Numenor, and Aragorn himself, put personally, I don't think so.

Long before, Luthien elf married Beren man and chose to be a mortal. Does anyone know how long their children lived? I think Beren
's lifespan was that of a normal human. That hewas sent back from the dead might complicate things.

[Childlike Empress]

technically, Aragorn's children should live longer then the first kings of Numenor, and Aragorn himself, put personally, I don't think so.

Why not?

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Why was that choice actually given to Elrond's children? For Elros chose to be a Man, and no choice was given to his children, so why to Elrond's?

Actually, it's strange, that the elves, due to their love, were always allowed to become mortals, like Lúthien, and therefore they were given more changes than Men, who were mortals and could not become anything else.

Ilúvatar and the valar didn't care very much about the Men, it seems [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Voralphion]

Elves were not always allowed to become mortal, it only happened twice. The first time was Luthien, the second time was Arwen. Although for Arwen, she was never a full elf as she hadn't made a choice as to what kindred she would belong to, so her choice to become mortal wasn't really giving up her immortality as it was only a temporary gift until she made the choice.
Also the comment that men were never able to become immortal isn't fully true either. Tuor, the father of Earendil, was able to become immortal after marrying Idril daughter of Turgon. That was probably also due to the fact he was chosen by Ulmo, but after going into the west he was granted immortality and counted among the elven race.

[vanwalossien]

Why was that choice actually given to Elrond's children? For Elros chose to be a Man, and no choice was given to his children, so why to Elrond's?

Elros chose to live as a man before his children was born didn't he? So his children would (providing that Elros married a human woman)be 'all' human. But Elrond lives as an elf, so his children will be at least partly elven, and those who are partly, but not fully, elven have to choose isn't that so? (Correct me if I'm wrong, my confused mind seems to make up its own opinion about a lot of things.. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[vanwalossien]

As for Arwen's children, I think the same rule apply to them as to Elros' children, they would be mortal. Because their parents are a human and a half-elf living a mortal life. With two mortal parents, how could they be immortal?

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In 'The Passing Of The Grey Company' Elrohir and Elladan are described as 'men'. Why is this? They were particularly friendly to the race of Men but they had lived for over a thousand years each hadn't they?

[HerenIstarion]

the reference concerns their manhood i.e bearing and appearance characteristics of a male. Nazgul in the movie refer to Arwen as "she-elf", but I don't think term "he-elf" would have been appropriate to describe Elladan and Elrohir

Still more their choice was not yet made either

[Meela]

3 quarters immortal.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Isn't that basically having the best of both worlds? Live as long as you want to, and then when you get weary of the world choose to be Human, and die?

Elladan and Elrohir were finding loopholes if you ask me.

[Elrian]

I do not think that the term half-elven was in reference to the fraction of Elven in the bloodline, Elrond and his brother were more than half, yet they were considered half. It would seem that it was meant of Elven and another race, which even Luthian would be half-elven. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

Elrian is right. Luthien was half-elven, as was Dior Eluchíl, Elwing, and Eärendil. The choice was not granted until Elros and Elrond, and is not mentioned further than Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.

Long before, Luthien elf married Beren man and chose to be a mortal. Does anyone know how long their children lived?

Dior, their only son, was born around 470 FA and slain around 510 FA when the sons of Fëanor attacked Doriath. This premature death leaves us hanging on his fate.

Elrond i[s] called Half-elf in the book, yes, but he once was allowed a chice, Mortal or elven, and he chose Elven. So in my opinion Arwen is 100% elf.

Your opinion in the matter doesn't amount to anything in matters that Tolkien explicitly addressed. Tolkien said she was not to be counted as an elf (nor Elrond, nor any of his descendents). They simply shared the fate of men/elves, but were not men/elves.

Letter No. 154:

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all.

More plainly, in Letter No. 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

She was not an elf who turned mortal. She was not considered an elf until she made the choice - she was a half-elf that chose the fate of men over the fate of elves.

Actually, it's strange, that the elves, due to their love, were always allowed to become mortals, like Lúthien, and therefore they were given more changes than Men, who were mortals and could not become anything else.

Ilúvatar and the valar didn't care very much about the Men, it seems

Only Luthien was allowed to do that, and probably only due to her great deeds. On the other hand, Tuor, a man, was granted immortality for service to Ulmo. That makes the score even. Also, Manwë stated that immortality was not his to give, so the Valar cannot make the offer. Immortality was granted by Eru alone. See the quote from Letter No. 153 below for Tolkien's musings on this.

About Aragorn/Arwen's daughters and Eldarion, nothing points toward them having the choice. The choice of the half-elven certainly could not go on forever in accordance with what Tolkien wrote about Eru and the Valar, mortality and immortality, and elves and men (Letter No. 153):

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

From the Appendix A of Return of the King:

To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Once Elros chose mortality, the rest of his line followed with no say in the matter, and nothing else implies that the generations after Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen would either. The quote from the appendix says only the children of Elrond and nothing of their children, so we are not to infer that they have the choice. Until told otherwise by author, we should only take in what was written. Had the choice been handed down beyond this generation, he would've said so.

About their privelege to delay the choice - they could only delay it for an indefinite amount of time after Elrond's parting. It does seem a bit unfair, but that's how Tolkien decided it should be.

A little removed from the point of discussion, but interesting still (to me anyway) is the half-elven ancestry:

I have written it out here. (That link is broken now...I don't know how it was deleted.)

It is not possible to determine their exact proportions of race since certain Elven maids' origins are not given (Elenwë, Olwë/Eärwen's unnamed wife/mother, Elmo's unnamed wife, Galadhon's unnamed wife, and Fingoflin's unnamed wife). As it stands with my assumptions that these maids were 100% elven (as whatever kindred they are mentioned as), Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir were 2/64 Maia, 12/64 Man, 34/64 Sindar, 11/64 Noldor, 5/64 Vanyar [50/64 Elven, 52/64 Immortal]. Arwen's make-up is thus 0.78125 elven.

[Legolas]

Ah ha!

This is why Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen get the choice: their mother is Elvish.

Letter No. 153:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

Arwen chose mortality and wed a mortal, thus their children would not have the choice. Elladan and Elrohir are in a different situation - if they chose to share elven fate and wed elven maidens, I imagine their children too would have the choice.

[tangerine]

Earnedil made this choice, and he chose the to be of the first people for the sake of his wife. His children were also given this choice: Elros chose mortality and founded a kingdom. Elrond chose to be an elf (half-elven only refers to his heritage- he was around from near the end of the first age), but it had a hitch- when the time came, his children would have to choose between accompanying him to Aman, or forsake their immortality and stay behind. Arwen forsook her immortality when she chose Aragorn, just as her foremother had done ages before. Thus they were both like the Numenoreans of old, living lives longer than most of the past kings of Gondor, but nevertheless mortal. Their children would likely be similar in lifespan.

[Nieninque]

So let me get this straight... Arwen, being 'half-elven' gets to choose, but her children, even though they have elven blood, do not get to choose?
Also, *is confused* I don't get this spontaneous-deciding-to-be-mortal thing. How is it possible just to choose one day? Does it just happen, or do they go through some sort of ceremony? I know this is Middle Earth, but Tolkien seemed to be very particular about such things. I don't see how the power of thought/decision could alter a life span or biological makeup. Where does the forsaken immortality go?

[Lord of Angmar]

I think it would only make sense that Arwen and Aragorn's children would all be allowed to choose a life of immortality or mortality. All, that is, except for their son Eldarion, who, I believe, was bound to the line of Men being the heir to the throne of Gondor. Since Arwen is 3/4 Elvish and Aragorn has Elvish blood (albeit a minute amount) I do not see why their daughters could not choose immortality.

Now that I argue this point, I reach a counterargument in my mind, which is that all of Aragorn's children would be bound up in the bloodline of the King of Men, and thus would be bound to the Fate of Men.

I suppose arguments can be made for both sides.

[The Saucepan Man]

Personally, I can't see any argument for the children of Aragorn and Arwen being given a choice. Arwen chose mortality before giving birth. They were therefore the children of two mortals.

[HCIsland]

If the decendents of Arwen had a choice then so would the decendents of Elros. The decendents of Elros did not have a choice, so neither would the decendents of Arwen.

QED

Knowledge of fractions doesn't enter into it.

H.C.

[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Legolas]

I think it would only make sense that Arwen and Aragorn's children would all be allowed to choose a life of immortality or mortality.

As previously stated, Elrond's children were given a choice because their mother was wholly elven, and for that reason only. The children of Aragorn and Arwen would not be given a choice.

[Arwen Eruantale]

The answer can be quite simple and logical really. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Arwen chose Mortality, and wed a mortal, Aragorn. Thus, both were mortal, and so therefore, were their descendants. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Hope that helped...

[Annalaliath]

Arwen's children would have lived longer than other people but they would have died, I was reading this somewhere. Think of Elros, his children all died, they didnot have the choice, but Elrond's children did because he chose to live the life of an elf, but he was still Half or part elf part man. Think about it Aragorn is a decendant or Elros, he lives longer than other men but he still grows old and dies. ( Elrond and Elros were btothers by the way) So I donot think that the children of Arwen and Aragorn could make the choice because their mother made it for them in her mortality.

You all should relly read the Letters of Tolkien.

[ArathorofBarahir]

Arwen made her childrens decision for them. She chose mortality therefore her children would be mortal.

[Amrod the Hunter]

I personnaly also think they would not get a choice,bacause Arwen chose mortality and Aragorn is also a mortal,so they would probably also be mortals who would live as long as Aragorn.