Hobbits and the Valar (or The Forgotten People)

[Birdland]

I have always wondered about the fact that - as Pippin said - Hobbits were never on "the old lists". The Elves and dwarves were aware of their existence, but other than that, they were pretty much forgotten by all others in Middle Earth, including the Ents!

They are not mentioned in any of the Creation stories, and they themselves seem to have no stories of their beginnings, far-fetched as that sounds. And yet, one of the Istari takes an interest in these people, long before the discovery of the One Ring would warrant it. (Remember too, that the after Isilder, the only possessers of the Ring were Hobbits.)

I never could believe that Tolkien simply "forgot" to creat a history for Hobbits. Do you think that Hobbits being a "Forgotten People" may have in some way been intentional?

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Wow. That's a good question. I would like to know the answer as well (sorry I can't help you out [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

[Bruce MacCulloch]

They were a sub-race of Men.
In "Of Dwarves and Men" in Peoples of Middle Earth (HoME vol 12) it says:

Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar(especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet. Their height at the periods concerned was usually more than three feet for men, though very few ever exceeded three foot six; women seldom exceeded three feet. They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men, but evidently more numerous and adaptable to different modes of life and habitat than the Drûgs, and when they are first encountered in the histories already showed divergences in colouring, stature, and build, and in their ways of life and preferences for different types of country to dwell in (see the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings). In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage'people, but when we meet them they had (in varying degrees) acquired many arts and customs by contact with Men, and to a less extent with Dwarves and Elves. With Men of normal stature they recognized their close kinship, whereas Dwarves or Elves, whether friendly or hostile, were aliens, with whom their relations were uneasy and clouded by fear. Bilbo's statement (The Lord of the Rings,1) that the cohabitation of Big Folk and Little Folk in one settlement at Bree was peculiar and nowhere else to be found was probably true in his time (the end of the Third Age); but it would seem that actually Hobbits had liked to live with or near to Big Folk of friendly kind, who with their greater strength protected them from many dangers and enemies and other hostile Men, and received in exchange many services. For it is remarkable that the western Hobbits preserved no trace or memory of any language of their own. The language they spoke when they entered Eriador was evidently adopted from the Men of the Vales of Anduin (related to the Atani, in particular to those of the House of Beor); and after their adoption of the Common Speech they retained many words of that origin. This indicates a close association with Big Folk; though the rapid adoption of the Common Speech in Eriador shows Hobbits to have been specially adaptable in this respect. As does also the divergence of the Stoors, who had associated with Men of different sort before they came to the Shire.

In the same article, still speaking of Men:

Thus it came about that the Numenorean term Middle Men was confused in its application. Its chief test was friendliness towards the West (to Elves and to Numenoreans), but it was actually applied usually only to Men whose stature and looks were similar to those of the Numenoreans, although this most important distinction of 'friendliness' was not historically confined to peoples of one racial kind. It was a mark of all kinds of Men who were descendants of those who had abjured the Shadow of Morgoth and his servants and wandered westward to escape it -and certainly included both the races of small stature, Drûgs and Hobbits.

In Letters, 131, the Professor says

The Hobbits are, of course, meant to be abranch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and the Little Folk.They are entirely without non-human powers are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

Letters, no 316, says:

... and that my 'hobbits' were in any case of wholly dissimilar sort, a diminutive branch of the human race.

[Birdland]

Wow, Bruce, I gotta get to the library. Apparently Tolkien wrote more about the subject then I had thought.

I only have one "reference" work: The Tolkien Companion, and it doesn't mention Durgs. Are these the same as Wose, or the Pukel-Men?

Yes, the Wose are Third Age relations of the First Age Druedain (Drug) and (I believe) Second Age Pukel-men. Unfinished Tales has a chapter about them which explains how they were allied with the Third House of Men, the folk of Haleth.

[Niphredil Baggins]

I agree with Bruce. They belong to the Younger Children of Iluvatar.

Speaking of Iluvatar, I had a laugh yesterday when my spell-check changed his name to Elevator. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Maeglin]

Hup. That seems res. But stop using that huge pic. It's really anoying! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Birdland

I have always wondered about the fact that - as Pippin said - Hobbits were never on "the old lists". The Elves and dwarves were aware of their existence, but other than that, they were pretty much forgotten by all others in Middle Earth, including the Ents!

I wouldn't ay that they are forgotten. They were just unknown.

The Rohirrim, who at some point (while living in the North) encountered hobbits, preserved memmory of them in tales. Those that lived or travelled by the Shire/Bree knew about them. Other races (eg Ents, like you said) probably never saw a hobbit before LOTR times.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I wouldn't ay that they are forgotten. They were just unknown.

The Rohirrim, who at some point (while living in the North) encountered hobbits, preserved memmory of them in tales. Those that lived or travelled by the Shire/Bree knew about them. Other races (eg Ents, like you said) probably never saw a hobbit before LOTR times.

I wouldn't even say they were unknown...unusal perhaps, and though of as a myth, but if the Rohirrim, Elves, Dwarves, and at least some of the men of Gondor, as well as the men around Hobbiton and presumably the men of Laketown following Bilbo's adventure, are aware of Halflings/Hobbits, the Ents look more like the minority then the majority, at least among the learned members of the other races by the time of the War of the Ring.

[Galadriel55]

Well, I still say that the Rohirrim and the few Men, Dwarves, and Elves that knew about hobbits were the minority.

I think the "problem" lies in the fact that hobbits were never recorded in the great histories of ME before the War, even if they were known to exist. Faramir, who spent lots of time in the library, never heard of a hobbit until he met Frodo. I think it's safe to say that most Men of Gondor did not know of hobbits. A "perian" is literally "halfling" in elvish (or, at least, I think it is), and wouldn't that be the natural thing to call a race that is half your size? I think that that name did not exist before Pippin was brought to Gondor, unless it was in some "old wives' tale" taken from the Rohirrim.

Moreover, there are many people inhabiting ME that don't know about hobbits - Dunlendings, Haradrim, orcs, and many others that did not come in contact with them. Even Sauron had no idea that hobbits existed until Gollum was caught.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think the "problem" lies in the fact that hobbits were never recorded in the great histories of ME before the War, even if they were known to exist. Faramir, who spent lots of time in the library, never heard of a hobbit until he met Frodo. I think it's safe to say that most Men of Gondor did not know of hobbits. A "perian" is literally "halfling" in elvish (or, at least, I think it is), and wouldn't that be the natural thing to call a race that is half your size? I think that that name did not exist before Pippin was brought to Gondor, unless it was in some "old wives' tale" taken from the Rohirrim.

Faramir had however heard of halflings, for he says, "For this is not the first halfling that I have seen walking [b]out of northern legends into the Southlands"[b/]- and from the way Gandalf speaks to Ingold when entering Gondor with Pippin, it seems that halfling, without any other descriptive words, is a good enough answer to the question what is a hobbit. And to quote Beregond, "For never before have we seen a halfling in this land and though we have hear rumour of them,, little is said of them in any tale that we know."

So they had been heard of in Gondor at least, and not only by the learned. Though, they seem to have been thought of as legends - much like fairies would be thought of today...

To address the fact that the Haradrim and such had never heard of Hobbits. To me, this adds a sense of realism to the books. In our recent history, prior to the invention of the airplane and such, many cultures were unknown due to lack of ways to reach the outskirts and such to see them, except by those who lived near them...For Sauron, well, evil has a way of being shortsighted, and causing its own defeat....

Edited to add: Puddleglum has a good point - the Ents seem to be rather insular. They don't know much about anything outside their lands, that isn't ancient history it seems like. And, even if the elves were updating the lists - who's going to make the trip to tell Treebeard? Celeborn doesn't seem too fond of the idea of traveling through Fangorn, judging by his comment to Boromir, Elrond isn't going to pop over the mountains, nor would Cirdan, and Thranduil had more concerns then finding an Ent to tell them the news that halflings were discovered...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Brooke

So they had been heard of in Gondor at least, and not only by the learned. Though, they seem to have been thought of as legends - much like fairies would be thought of today...

Probbly via Rohirric tales...

Puddleglum has a good point - the Ents seem to be rather insular. They don't know much about anything outside their lands, that isn't ancient history it seems like.

Seconded.

To address the fact that the Haradrim and such had never heard of Hobbits. To me, this adds a sense of realism to the books. In our recent history, prior to the invention of the airplane and such, many cultures were unknown due to lack of ways to reach the outskirts and such to see them, except by those who lived near them...

True. And you said it yourself: you don't know about a race unless you live near them or come in contact with them during travels. Most people of ME who know about hobbits know them from rumors and stories, often exaggerated - like the hopeful "Ernil-i-pheriannath" myth.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Birdland

I have always wondered about the fact that - as Pippin said - Hobbits were never on "the old lists". The Elves and dwarves were aware of their existence, but other than that...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I wouldn't ay that they are forgotten. They were just unknown.

I was thinking (admittedly, just speculation) and there may be another reason why Hobbits were not on the old lists.

It may be simply because they *WERE* the OLD Lists. That is, Hobbits don't seem to enter into any records until sometime in the Third Age and the lists may well have been made far back in the First Age (or before). Even if they were updated in the Second Age, the Third Age was the time of Fading for the Elves and they may simply not have bothered officially updating the lists (and passing the updates along to Ents & others) by that time.
The Ents, of course, had already lost the Entwives and seem to have been going more insular themselves (as Men continued expanding). Yet one more reason why, even if some elves somewhere had thought of updating the lists, any changes wouldn't become widely known by Ents.

Just a speculation.