Withstanding Sauron

[rudeboy]

In one of Tolkiens letters he said that few could withstand Sauron, no of the mortal race. He said Aragorn had no hope of doing it, he only won the battle through the palantiri because it was his! If Aragorn could withstand him face to face how come Elendil mortally wounded Sauron and Isildur cut the ring off?

[Maéglin]

It was Gil-galad AND Elendil that cast down Sauron. Gil-galad was Elvenking of Middle Earth, Lord of Lindon, born of the Noldor, son of Fingon the Valiant, wielder of the spear Aiglos.

Elendil the Tall was the son of Amandil, a Lord of Numenor, descended from direct lineage from Elros, first king of Numenor, and also wielder of Narsil, forged by Telchar in the first age. So you see, these two were no pushovers.

Sauron was powerful but as a warrior among the Ainur he probably did not rank so high. He seemed in Tolkien's works to work in more craftier ways than warfare (he was a shapeshifter). However with Gil-galad and Elendil casting down Sauron and in the process being slain themselves, Isildur cut the One Ring from the hand of the fallen Sauron.
Ok, I think I went a little overboard. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Well also bear in mind that through the palantír Aragorn was facing the full brunt of Sauron's spiritual power: Moroght, and his servants, seem to have a habit of breaking people (psycologically) with their gazes, (eyes = windows to souls?) whereas Gil-Galad etc may have avoided his gaze and concentrated fully on military victory.

[the phantom]

Moroght, and his servants, seem to have a habit of breaking people (psycologically) with their gazes, (eyes = windows to souls?) whereas Gil-Galad etc may have avoided his gaze and concentrated fully on military victory.

True. It was an all out physical battle. It seems from Tolkien's account of the fight that Sauron's only purpose was to kill Gil and Elendil. He was surrounded and his forces were defeated and he knew his day of victory had to be postponed, so he decided to run out and give Gil and Elendil a big hug before he was physically destroyed. Pretty mean guy. "I'm about to lose, but I'll take out both of their beloved kings before I leave."

And all Isildur did was cut the ring from Sauron's hand after Sauron was on the ground.

There's a difference between fighting Sauron in a war and being in a room with him by yourself. I remember the quote that your basing your post on, rudeboy, and I believe that it said no mortal could withhold the ring from Sauron if he came and asked for it after they had claimed it for themselves.

[Maéglin]

At the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth

Doesn't that actually imply that the siege of Barad-dur was so close with neither forces unable to defeat the other that Sauron himself had to enter the fray. I don't think Sauron counted on the might of Gil-galad and Elendil together. After all he was a shape-shifter. Couldn't he just have high-tailed it out of there in Vampiric form.

[the phantom]

At the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth

I take that to mean that the last alliance's siege had become so tight and effective (and their victory was near) that Sauron came out.

Sauron is the type that leads from the rear, and never acts himself unless he has something specific in mind that he thinks only he can accomplish. Sauron going to battle beside his troops? That's not like him at all. He came out to do something much more important than help his servants fight.

After all he was a shape-shifter. Couldn't he just have high-tailed it out of there in Vampiric form.

After the destruction of Numenor Sauron lost his power to make himself appear fair. It seems logical that some of his other shapeshifting abilities might've been diminished as well.

[Olorin_TLA]

That's a large assumption though...could be that, since the Siege was going bad for him, he did indeed think he could take out Gil-Galad and Elendil...perahps they surpassed his expectations?

Interesting...Balrog vs Sauron, who wins? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

That's a large assumption though

What is? Me stating that it's not like Sauron to go out and fight. That's not assumption, it's the pattern of his behavior throughout his history.

And his loss of shape shifting ability is definitely not an assumption. The same thing happened to Melkor, he became tied to the physical form he had created.

he did indeed think he could take out Gil-Galad and Elendil...perahps they surpassed his expectations?

As far as Gil and El surpassing Sauron's expectations, it really doesn't matter because he killed them anyway.

[Maéglin]

Well the exact quote is

he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so he could never again appear fair in the eyes of men

This does not say anything at all about losing his abilities to change shape. Just that he couldnt take a fair form in order to deceive men ever again. Which of course does not say anything about him not being able to shape-shift, just that he cannot shape-shift into Annatar or other fair incarnations.

If you are going by behaviour then it is not Sauron's behaviour to be defeated valiantly and not retreat, killing his two greatest foes of the Second age. He has a history of cowardice, the duel with Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, yielding to Ar-Pharazon to work his way into the heart of Numenor and feinting his defeat at Dol-Guldur in the Third Age.

You say that it is not like Sauron to go out and fight beside his troops. You are perhaps correct but the siege lasted seven years before Sauron decide to come forth into combat. It makes sense that he wanted to end the stalemate and not to mention that Sauron did do tremendous hurt to the Last Alliance before his defeat so that he could still prevail

suffered great loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them.

I really don't think that Sauron was just going

to run out and give Gil and Elendil a big hug before he was physically destroyed