Two Questions - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

FairLadyGoldberry · 12-30-2003, 02:05 PM

Ok I have two questions.

1) About the Grey Havens, is it a land, or more of a heaven-type place? I know it is the undying lands...but...

2) What lands surround Middle-earth? Numenor is one, correct? Is there a map anywhere of these places?

And by the way this is a great site and I'm looking forward to becoming a wight [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lord of Angmar · 12-30-2003, 02:14 PM

1) The Grey Havens are not part of the Undying Land. They are a coastal land presided over by Cirdan the Shipwright, whose primary concern in the Third Age of the World was to provide safe passage for the Elves to Valinor by allowing them to travel in his ships over the Great Sea to the Undying Land. He left Middle-earth himself in the Fourth Age, along with all other Elves that made their abode in the Grey Havens and in all of Middle-earth.

2) Actually, after the Second Age, Numenor did not exist. It was sunk to oblivion after Ar-Pharazon, persuaded by Sauron, assailed the Valar in the Undying Lands. Everyone in the assault was killed, as well as all of the inhabitants of Numenor except the Elendili, who, led by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, fled to Middle-earth and started the Kingdom of Gondor.

But I digress.

Besides Middle-earth, the Undying Lands (which were technically after the downfall of Numenor no longer part of the physical world) and the Walls of the Sun, there were the Hither Lands and the Dark Lands, of which Professor Tolkien did not write much.

Iarwain · 12-30-2003, 02:17 PM

1. Common misconception. The grey havens (look up haven in a dictionary, and you'll find this yourself) are mithlond, where the ships set off to reach Valinor, the Undying Lands, etc.

2. Middle Earth is actually a quite large continent. Tolkien did some rough maps of the world surrounding ME, but they don't say much. In the first age, and the early half of the second, there was another large continent on the western side of the great sea. After the sinking of numenor (an, in fact, rather small island) this continent (Valinor) was removed from the surface of the earth, and the earth was bent and made round, so that men could not invade Valinor as Ar-Pharazon had attempted.

Iarwain

P.S. Ah, M'lord, you beat me to the post. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:20 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

FairLadyGoldberry · 12-30-2003, 02:18 PM

Thank you for clearing that up!

The Dark Elf · 01-04-2004, 12:21 PM

The Grey Havens are a heaven like land to the elves simply because it is not corrupted by war

Lord of Angmar · 01-04-2004, 12:25 PM

Actually, the Grey Havens are not unassailable, and were, I believe, attacked several times by the forces of Sauron. They were not really a heaven (though they were a haven [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) for Elves, but rather a place from which to begin the journey to the Undying Lands, the Elven equivalent (in a very loose sense of the word) to Heaven.

The Dark Elf · 01-04-2004, 01:39 PM

the book of unfinished tales has a map of valinor

bilbo_baggins · 06-02-2004, 10:25 AM

Speaking of maps, you could also look in Sil, HoME, and (oh no, not written by Tolkien) The Tolkien Bestiary for maps relating to Middle Earth. They are all very good ones, I might add.

Elianna · 06-02-2004, 11:57 AM

"The Atlas of Middle-earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad is also good for these kinds of questions.

Boromir88 · 06-02-2004, 01:11 PM

I agree with Eliana, the Atlas is a great book to pick up and is a good reference book to anyone who wants to read "The Silmarillion."

06-08-2004, 08:51 AM

Hello I am new at this forum so I think It is appropiate that I give you a short presentation about me.

Well....My name is Marcus and I come from Sweden ( A country which lies in the northern regions of Europe.) I am 17 years old and currently studying social science and languages. I have been highly intersted in the books of Tolkien since I was 15 years old.

And now to my question: I am looking for a picture, I saw it once on a site but sadly I have forgotten the adress.
The picture is a black / white chart of the various races of middlearth. You can also see the average height of for example elves, dwarfs, hobbits......so on.

I am just wondering if someone might have this picture and if you would be kind to post it to me?

12-30-2003, 02:05 PM	#1
FairLadyGoldberry Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Old Forest Posts: 20	Two Questions Ok I have two questions. 1) About the Grey Havens, is it a land, or more of a heaven-type place? I know it is the undying lands...but... 2) What lands surround Middle-earth? Numenor is one, correct? Is there a map anywhere of these places? And by the way this is a great site and I'm looking forward to becoming a wight [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

12-30-2003, 02:14 PM	#2
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	1) The Grey Havens are not part of the Undying Land. They are a coastal land presided over by Cirdan the Shipwright, whose primary concern in the Third Age of the World was to provide safe passage for the Elves to Valinor by allowing them to travel in his ships over the Great Sea to the Undying Land. He left Middle-earth himself in the Fourth Age, along with all other Elves that made their abode in the Grey Havens and in all of Middle-earth. 2) Actually, after the Second Age, Numenor did not exist. It was sunk to oblivion after Ar-Pharazon, persuaded by Sauron, assailed the Valar in the Undying Lands. Everyone in the assault was killed, as well as all of the inhabitants of Numenor except the Elendili, who, led by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, fled to Middle-earth and started the Kingdom of Gondor. But I digress. Besides Middle-earth, the Undying Lands (which were technically after the downfall of Numenor no longer part of the physical world) and the Walls of the Sun, there were the Hither Lands and the Dark Lands, of which Professor Tolkien did not write much. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-30-2003, 02:17 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	1. Common misconception. The grey havens (look up haven in a dictionary, and you'll find this yourself) are mithlond, where the ships set off to reach Valinor, the Undying Lands, etc. 2. Middle Earth is actually a quite large continent. Tolkien did some rough maps of the world surrounding ME, but they don't say much. In the first age, and the early half of the second, there was another large continent on the western side of the great sea. After the sinking of numenor (an, in fact, rather small island) this continent (Valinor) was removed from the surface of the earth, and the earth was bent and made round, so that men could not invade Valinor as Ar-Pharazon had attempted. Iarwain P.S. Ah, M'lord, you beat me to the post. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:20 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

12-30-2003, 02:18 PM	#4
FairLadyGoldberry Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Old Forest Posts: 20	Thank you for clearing that up! __________________ So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

01-04-2004, 12:21 PM	#5
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	The Grey Havens are a heaven like land to the elves simply because it is not corrupted by war __________________ "Fool of a Took!"

01-04-2004, 12:25 PM	#6
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Actually, the Grey Havens are not unassailable, and were, I believe, attacked several times by the forces of Sauron. They were not really a heaven (though they were a haven [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) for Elves, but rather a place from which to begin the journey to the Undying Lands, the Elven equivalent (in a very loose sense of the word) to Heaven. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-04-2004, 01:39 PM	#7
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	the book of unfinished tales has a map of valinor __________________ "Fool of a Took!"

06-02-2004, 10:25 AM	#8
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Speaking of maps, you could also look in Sil, HoME, and (oh no, not written by Tolkien) The Tolkien Bestiary for maps relating to Middle Earth. They are all very good ones, I might add. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

06-02-2004, 11:57 AM	#9
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	"The Atlas of Middle-earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad is also good for these kinds of questions. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

06-02-2004, 01:11 PM	#10
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	Atlas I agree with Eliana, the Atlas is a great book to pick up and is a good reference book to anyone who wants to read "The Silmarillion."

06-08-2004, 08:51 AM	#11
Marcus Guest Posts: n/a	Hello I am new at this forum so I think It is appropiate that I give you a short presentation about me. Well....My name is Marcus and I come from Sweden ( A country which lies in the northern regions of Europe.) I am 17 years old and currently studying social science and languages. I have been highly intersted in the books of Tolkien since I was 15 years old. And now to my question: I am looking for a picture, I saw it once on a site but sadly I have forgotten the adress. The picture is a black / white chart of the various races of middlearth. You can also see the average height of for example elves, dwarfs, hobbits......so on. I am just wondering if someone might have this picture and if you would be kind to post it to me?