Morgoth or Sauron...which was the Greater Dark Lord? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-22-2003, 10:56 AM

Which was the GREATER Dark Lord...
Morgoth or Sauron?
Why?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:02 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: latner3 ]

Tar-Alcarin · 12-22-2003, 11:09 AM

There is another topic like this in the Newcomers Forum. But i will answer. Morgoth was. The guy taught Sauron everything he knew about being evil. He "created orcs" almost took over ME and killed everthing in his path.

But sauron on the other hand, all he did was make a ring of power, make the nazgul, corrupt saruman and tryed to take over ME. but becuase of Morgoth suaron was able to do all these things. O, and coruppted the Numenoreans to assail the Undying lands.

Enjoy being dead

Gurthang · 12-22-2003, 12:54 PM

Almost took over ME? I'd say he had complete control over all the world for at least a few ages before the elves decided to come back. Even then, Morgoth held them all in a net of fear and paranoia, which, of course, eventually became their downfall.

Morgoth is the easy victor. Honestly, how could a Maia be greater than one of the Valar?

The sheer logic is mind-numbing.

Gorwingel · 12-24-2003, 02:21 AM

Morgoth

Because Morgoth was an vala (Part of the Valar, put on M-E by Eru, most powerful of all) and Sauron was a maia (put on M-E by Eru too, but second in power to the vala). Sauron was basically Morgoth's apprectance, so there was no way that he was more powerful than Morgoth.

And besides once Sauron was gone, he was gone. Morgoth was distroyed, and eventually he was going to come back, and be evil again.

(I am sorry, this may be quite incorrect because I have not read The Sil in awhile, but I still think it is quite right)

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:23 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

aleesa · 12-24-2003, 03:54 AM

Morgoth wins, hands down. Morgoth was so cunning and evil that the elves fear him. Even the Valar made a war against him (If I'm not wrong. It's been a while since I read the Sil). He was a Vala while Sauron was only a Maia(Maiar are somewhat of a lesser stature than the Valar, right?).

Lhunardawen · 12-24-2003, 04:27 AM

Quote:

tryed to take over ME

Do you remember "Arda Marred"? This was due to Morgoth's control over Arda. So he did not just try to...he did. That is, until the War of Wrath when he was finally defeated and cast into the Void.

Sauron was merely his servant or emissary. After the defeat of Morgoth, he tried to ask for pardon from Eonwe, Manwe's herald, but Eonwe cannot do so because they are of the same order (Maiar) and he told Sauron to approach Manwe and the rest of the Valar instead. But the seed that Morgoth planted in his heart was rooted too deep, so he chose not to follow Eonwe's advice and he returned to evil.

However, it would seem that Sauron was more terrifying than Morgoth. I don't know, it's just that I deem the Nazgul to be too powerful. And Sauron seems to work more openly than Morgoth, or something. That is just my opinion.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:31 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]

Legolas · 12-25-2003, 11:27 AM

Moving to Novices and Newcomers.

rutslegolas · 02-01-2004, 12:38 AM

ya t too think morgoth was the greater one of the two morgoth and sauron .

as i remember gandalf saying that sauron was only a servant of a greater dark power(and i feel the greater darker power was morgoth)

Kransha · 02-01-2004, 07:04 PM

Morgoth, hands down.
Compared to Sauron he...
1. Is Taller!
2. Has Grond!
3. Took over Arda!
4. Doesn't live and die because of jewelery!
5. Commands Balrogs!
6. Bred Dragons!
7. LORD OF DARKNESS!!!!!

Bekah · 03-02-2004, 11:36 PM

Morgoth is the greater Dark Lord. It is unanimous. Though Sauron was only less evil in that he served another (i.e. Morgoth).

But if you want to read a hilarious fic including Sauron/Morgoth Macho Alpha Dark Lord fights, go to www.fanfiction.net, and search for 'Official Fanfiction University of Middle-earth' by Camilla Sandman.

I don't believe there's any point continuing this thread. Everyone agrees that Morgoth is greater, and I suggest the originator of this thread should read the Sil if s/he wants to find out for him/herself.

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

P.S. See? Everyone says it's Morgoth. What's the point in continuing? There's no discussion, just 'Morgoth, Morgoth, Morgoth....'

ArathorofBarahir · 03-03-2004, 02:27 PM

By far I would have to say that Morgorth was the Greater Dark Lord of the 2. He laid the groundwork for Sauron, without Morgorth, the War of the Ring would not have happened.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 03-04-2004, 06:30 AM

Pardon my disagreeing, but isn't it Morgoth who got hog-tied and gagged back to Valinor Twice? Sauron got away pretty much on every occation, and he lost only because he could not see a sneaking hobbit.

Note to self: Never leave the back-door guarded by a giant spider.

bilbo_baggins · 03-05-2004, 11:10 AM

Also to continue the last reply, Sauron had a deeper relationship(good or bad) with the inhabitants of ME. Morgoth was off somewhere fighting the Vala when he was captured! Sauron was scaring the heck out of a few thousand men and one hobbit, elf, and dwarf. (Battle of Morannon) Sauron was not as lowly as you might think.

rutslegolas · 03-08-2004, 07:17 AM

morgoth no doubt was the greater of the two.gandalf has clearly stated that the dark lord was only an servant an emissary of the greater dark power.

and also morgoth was more powerful and he controlled balrogs!!!!

bilbo_baggins · 03-08-2004, 09:07 AM

touche!

Forgot about balrogs!

Sillabub · 05-31-2004, 12:24 PM

Morgoth!!!! He was more powerful, there aren't many (if any) pictures of him so we're free to imagine him as whatever we want, he's not a large mass of disembodied power in the shape of an eye, and he was from the silmarillion.

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-31-2004, 05:58 PM

Quote:

... he's not a large mass of disembodied power in the shape of an eye ...

Neither is Sauron.

Quote:

... and he was from the silmarillion.

So was Sauron.

But of course Morgoth is the greater Dark Lord. He is the source of evil in Arda.

tar-ancalime · 06-01-2004, 08:45 AM

Quote:

4. Doesn't live and die because of jewelery!

Though I hear he is rather fond of jewels, and has very discerning taste.

Lhundulinwen · 06-03-2004, 08:38 PM

If I do remeber correctly, Tolkien said once about the Sil. that it was a lot like the LOTR, just with greater stakes. (I am so paraphrasing!) So, even though I haven't read the Sil. (yet!) I have to agree that Morgoth was the more powerful.

Son of Númenor · 06-03-2004, 08:49 PM

Perhaps Tolkien's stating that Morgoth was unequivocally the most powerful being in Arda (before his fall, at least, after which he still remained a great deal stronger than all but the Aratar) would shed some light on the discussion.

Not only that, but Morgoth won more huge battles than Sauron, nearly vanquished the Noldor & the Edain, & at the end of an age of unmitigated battle with many of the most powerful Eruhini ever to live, still had enough left in his tank to give the Host of the Valar a run for their money.

12-22-2003, 10:56 AM	#1
latner3 Guest Posts: n/a	Morgoth or Sauron...which was the Greater Dark Lord? Which was the GREATER Dark Lord... Morgoth or Sauron? Why? <font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:02 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: latner3 ]

12-22-2003, 11:09 AM	#2
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	There is another topic like this in the Newcomers Forum. But i will answer. Morgoth was. The guy taught Sauron everything he knew about being evil. He "created orcs" almost took over ME and killed everthing in his path. But sauron on the other hand, all he did was make a ring of power, make the nazgul, corrupt saruman and tryed to take over ME. but becuase of Morgoth suaron was able to do all these things. O, and coruppted the Numenoreans to assail the Undying lands. Enjoy being dead __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-22-2003, 12:54 PM	#3
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Almost took over ME? I'd say he had complete control over all the world for at least a few ages before the elves decided to come back. Even then, Morgoth held them all in a net of fear and paranoia, which, of course, eventually became their downfall. Morgoth is the easy victor. Honestly, how could a Maia be greater than one of the Valar? The sheer logic is mind-numbing. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

12-24-2003, 02:21 AM	#4
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Morgoth Because Morgoth was an vala (Part of the Valar, put on M-E by Eru, most powerful of all) and Sauron was a maia (put on M-E by Eru too, but second in power to the vala). Sauron was basically Morgoth's apprectance, so there was no way that he was more powerful than Morgoth. And besides once Sauron was gone, he was gone. Morgoth was distroyed, and eventually he was going to come back, and be evil again. (I am sorry, this may be quite incorrect because I have not read The Sil in awhile, but I still think it is quite right) <font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:23 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ] __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

12-24-2003, 03:54 AM	#5
aleesa Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Lorien...(I wish...sigh) Posts: 26	Morgoth wins, hands down. Morgoth was so cunning and evil that the elves fear him. Even the Valar made a war against him (If I'm not wrong. It's been a while since I read the Sil). He was a Vala while Sauron was only a Maia(Maiar are somewhat of a lesser stature than the Valar, right?). __________________ ** "More haste, less speed"- Gollum

12-25-2003, 11:27 AM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Moving to Novices and Newcomers. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-01-2004, 12:38 AM	#8
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	ya t too think morgoth was the greater one of the two morgoth and sauron . as i remember gandalf saying that sauron was only a servant of a greater dark power(and i feel the greater darker power was morgoth) __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

02-01-2004, 07:04 PM	#9
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Morgoth, hands down. Compared to Sauron he... 1. Is Taller! 2. Has Grond! 3. Took over Arda! 4. Doesn't live and die because of jewelery! 5. Commands Balrogs! 6. Bred Dragons! 7. LORD OF DARKNESS!!!!! __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

03-02-2004, 11:36 PM	#10
Bekah Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Several miles over the madness horizon and accelerating Posts: 431	Morgoth is the greater Dark Lord. It is unanimous. Though Sauron was only less evil in that he served another (i.e. Morgoth). But if you want to read a hilarious fic including Sauron/Morgoth Macho Alpha Dark Lord fights, go to www.fanfiction.net, and search for 'Official Fanfiction University of Middle-earth' by Camilla Sandman. I don't believe there's any point continuing this thread. Everyone agrees that Morgoth is greater, and I suggest the originator of this thread should read the Sil if s/he wants to find out for him/herself. Cheers, ~ Elentari II P.S. See? Everyone says it's Morgoth. What's the point in continuing? There's no discussion, just 'Morgoth, Morgoth, Morgoth....' __________________ Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit ------------~~~~~~~~~~~~~------------ A laita Atar, ar Yondo, ar Ainasule. Ve nes i yessesse na sin, ar yeva tennoio. Nasie. Last edited by Bekah; 03-03-2004 at 06:26 PM.

03-03-2004, 02:27 PM	#11
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	By far I would have to say that Morgorth was the Greater Dark Lord of the 2. He laid the groundwork for Sauron, without Morgorth, the War of the Ring would not have happened. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

03-04-2004, 06:30 AM	#12
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Pardon my disagreeing, but isn't it Morgoth who got hog-tied and gagged back to Valinor Twice? Sauron got away pretty much on every occation, and he lost only because he could not see a sneaking hobbit. Note to self: Never leave the back-door guarded by a giant spider.

03-05-2004, 11:10 AM	#13
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Also to continue the last reply, Sauron had a deeper relationship(good or bad) with the inhabitants of ME. Morgoth was off somewhere fighting the Vala when he was captured! Sauron was scaring the heck out of a few thousand men and one hobbit, elf, and dwarf. (Battle of Morannon) Sauron was not as lowly as you might think. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-08-2004, 07:17 AM	#14
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	morgoth no doubt was the greater of the two.gandalf has clearly stated that the dark lord was only an servant an emissary of the greater dark power. and also morgoth was more powerful and he controlled balrogs!!!! __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

03-08-2004, 09:07 AM	#15
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	touche! Forgot about balrogs! __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

05-31-2004, 12:24 PM	#16
Sillabub Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: GONDOR!! Posts: 138	Morgoth!!!! Morgoth!!!! He was more powerful, there aren't many (if any) pictures of him so we're free to imagine him as whatever we want, he's not a large mass of disembodied power in the shape of an eye, and he was from the silmarillion. __________________ They were holding umbrellas. Not just any umbrellas- BLACK umbrellas. Not just ANY black umbrellas- these were...(knuckle-biting time) the BLACK UMBRELLAS OF DEATH!!!!! cue sinister music

06-03-2004, 08:38 PM	#19
Lhundulinwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wishin' and hopin' in the Shire Posts: 139	If I do remeber correctly, Tolkien said once about the Sil. that it was a lot like the LOTR, just with greater stakes. (I am so paraphrasing!) So, even though I haven't read the Sil. (yet!) I have to agree that Morgoth was the more powerful. __________________ ~Just call on me, and I'm there. I'll always be your Sam~

06-03-2004, 08:49 PM	#20
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Perhaps Tolkien's stating that Morgoth was unequivocally the most powerful being in Arda (before his fall, at least, after which he still remained a great deal stronger than all but the Aratar) would shed some light on the discussion. Not only that, but Morgoth won more huge battles than Sauron, nearly vanquished the Noldor & the Edain, & at the end of an age of unmitigated battle with many of the most powerful Eruhini ever to live, still had enough left in his tank to give the Host of the Valar a run for their money. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement." Last edited by Son of Númenor; 06-04-2004 at 04:27 PM.