Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

[Samwise of the shire]

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Ok this might seem a bit off topic but it'll make sense soon -I hope-.Ok when I was reading HP I noticed that Rowling COPIED Tolkien,big time-ok other authors copy Tolkien-but when I was reading a passage in an HP book I noticed that the poltergeist is a...get this...HOBBIT!!!! She's poking fun at Tolkiens suprior writing!How do I know?It says that Peeves -the potltergeist- turns upside down and,wiggiling his WOOLEY toes zooms down the hall swearing.And her dementors sound alot like the black riders-HP can even resist them- (someone tie me in a chair and douse me with a bucket of cold water please)If anyone has noticed anything else about HP -wether it be writing that sounds alot like Tolkiens or if you'd like to compare charater traits-post here. Ok?
A thoroghly outraged
Samwise Gamgee

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[Orald]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Never read HP, I thought about it when I read an article in Readers Digest about Rowling, but I decided that I spend to much time on the internet to pick up any new hobbies. I thought the HP books were for children anyway.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

I've heard a great deal about Harry Potter,but never glanced at any of the books. I thought they were for children too,not that that's bad.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Sam: just because Peeves has wooly toes, doesn't mean he's a hobbit. Admitedly, I'm not that familiar with HP, but I'm pretty certain Rowling never mentions the word 'hobbit'. And if he had wooly toes, he could just be a nice, innocent woolly mammoth. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

As for comparing the Dementors to the Black Riders - you could, but then, you could also say that they're pretty Star Wars-ish too.

Anything can be linked back to Tolkien if you try hard enough, and similarities don't mean plaigarism (spelling?). Isaac Asimov once wrote an essay about that - it's in Gold I think - where he deals pretty well with the topic.

(Oh, not to sound like a major HP freak, but is Tolkien's writing so much 'superior', as different in style and content?)

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[enep]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

Plagiarism. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Depends on your view, age, level of knowledge etc. as to 'superiority.' Do you classify Tolkien as superior because of its depth? Mythological values? Or do you think of HP as superior because you're 8 and like the characters?

Does it really matter? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> You can't compare HP and Tolkien, they're two completely different things - in setting, characters etc. To compare the work of a lore master and superb linguist like Tolkien to the works of JK Rowling, a humble but successful author, aimed at kids 7+, would be near impossible. Not to say that HP is not written well; because it is, and is targeted to the intended audience as it should.

Like Z said, there are parallels to Tolkien everywhere - when you think about it, there are Tolkien-istic themes in everything from Redwall to Star Wars, even if they are just basic good v. evil (I think I posted something similar to this in a dif. thread) or something more delicate, storyline or character parallels.

Bah! I'm getting tired of typing so much. E out.

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 3/8/01 4:00:02 am

[Balin999]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

i read all 4 books (for my question of special interest in school: english) and there are similarities everywhere.
well, take the trolls or the goblins.. ok i guess they were not invented by tolkien (were they?) but i think that rowling has definitely been partly influenced by the lord of the rings.


Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:Why are you saying that redwall is simalir?

I've read almost all of the redwall books and have'nt been able to find anything simalir between the books at all.And as for star wars it's just lotr turned sci-fi,but zoe-if you ever read them-like balin stated you gotta admit that the troll in the 1st book sounds an awful like one of the trolls Bilbo meets in &quot;The Hobbit&quot;-only a bit stupider but those trolls were smarter than the average Tolkien troll-.But as for the goblins?I dunno Balin they dont sound much like the goblins in Tolkien-to me that is-,but lookit the simalarites between Hagrid and Beorn,both are giants with black hair and beardas and both love animals-though Beorn goes for much safer animals than Hagrid-.
And another thing,has anyone noticed HP's attitude?Compare his with oh...Aragorns or Sam's or anyone elses for that matter then post what you found ok?
The still somewhat ticked
Samwise
ps has anyone dumped that pail of water one me?*grin*

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[Aldaron]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

I don't think we can say that Rowling was making fun of Tolkien or even copying him. There is such a thing as paying homage, and if anything, I think that is what Rowling might have been doing. I've only read the first book but I enjoyed it a lot. Yes, it was written for children, but this doesn't mean that adults can't enjoy it. I know quite a few adults who have read the books. Is Winnie-the-Pooh only a children's book, or The Wind in the Willows? Or John Bellairs wonderful series? Or currently Philip Pullman? It's true that we can spend plenty of time in the world that Tolkien created but it doesn't hurt to try something else once in a while. Then you can come back refreshed and ready for a new look at what Tolkien wrote.

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[Oliphaunt]

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Redwall

I was a big Redwall fan a few years back and I read on a FAQ to Brian Jacques (the author) that he had never read Tolkien, and I think it reflects more of the King Arthur legends than anything (hero, special sword, etc). But if you're looking for good fantasy lit, try to get your hands on some George Macdonald. He was pre-Tolkien, which is an accomplishment few fantasy writers can claim. It's really refreshing. Fantasy without a quest or even elves! A few of his books have goblins that are a lot like the goblins in the hobbit, but you can't claim George Macdonald copied JRRT.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Redwall

Tolkien did not 'invent' elves, dragons, goblins, trolls, etc. I think even Ents come from previous literature. Tolkien's work was intended to be a mythology for England, and as such contained elements found in english/european folk tales.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, is a school story, with wizards and (very much &quot;abracadabra&quot;, mechanical) magic thrown in. (This fact doesn't affect the quality at all, it's just a classification.) As such, it bears considerable similarities to The Great English School Story, as written well-known-ed-ly (?!!), but certainly not exclusively, by Enid Blyton. If you read the Mallory Towers books and then read Harry Potter, you will see far more similarities between the two than between HP and Tolkien.


I could even go as far as hypothesising that the similarities (or copying/making fun of, as you call it, Sam) found between the two are more a result of our natural wish to find similarities between things which are in the same category, and to work out why they are in the same category. Harry Potter and Tolkien's work have both been put into the 'fantasy' category by book sellers, and therefore, we see similarities which are simply coincidental, minor, and meaningless.

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[enep]

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Re: Redwall

Regarding Redwall: I didn't know that he'd never read LotR or Tolkien, which suprises me. Brian Jacques writes with a flair reminiscence of Tolkien but the grandeur of legends like King Arthur.

Wow, that sentence kicked ***. Gotta remember that for my next book review <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

If you think hard enough, you can find similarities everywhere. You could say Tolkien 'copied' others, others 'copied' Tolkien, and that one author 'copied' another.

It seems nothing's original these days. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

- enep</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Redwall

There is nothing new under the Sun.

(Argh! I just 'plagiarised' the Bible! <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

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[enep]

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Re: Redwall

Blah. That's what I say to plagiarism <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

- enep</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

(What, I'm the only child?)
To clarify:

JKR had not read any Tolkien when she wrote the books. (I read that in an interview, the One Ring or something.) Her magic is the 'abracadabra' type (Actually she uses latin.)
The books are very good. Really. They're magical realism, or something.
Actually, I was once a 'major HP freak' - that's the reason I'm online in the first place, I used to roleplay at a hogwarts and it was through 'Hogwarts' taht I became adicted to the computer. <img src=tongue.gif ALT="">
Seriously, they're very good. The thing that actually struck me most as a similarity is 'He who must not be named' - Rowling and 'He who we do not name' - Tolkien. Also the 'Wormtail' and 'Wormtongue' (I only know for sure that she hadn't read Tolkien in the beginning.)

And in closing:
JKR admits to copying a lot of names and so on. I've found quite a lot of HP names in other places, and almost all the names in her books are word plays - Remus Lupin, a werewolf (there's a legend behind the Remus, 'boy raised by wolves', and Loup is moon in french.) Almost every name in the book has a meaning behind it; from a language or a legend or a book.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

Did I say you couldnt try anything else?No I did not so you must've read wrong.It's just that after reading Tolkien I just cant find as good liturature and I would say HP is below

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

Sam - And I say that HP isn't 'below', just different. We're probably never going to agree, though. It's all a matter of personal taste.

Of course you didn't say that there weren't other similarities, but I (and whoever else, can't be bothered checking back on the topic) would argue that because there are so many similarities to completely different texts, it seems a little bit too much to argue that, on the basis of wooly toes and dementors, HP is at all related to Tolkien.

Hannah 3 - If, by &quot;What, I'm the only child?&quot; you mean &quot;Am I the only child at this board&quot;, then no, you're not. I'm 14 - hardly an adult. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:Hello peoples WAKE UP

if ur comparing 2 tolkien then u will think many things r 'below' but at least JKR admits 2 copying {i heard in an interview} but she only copies afew things like names and a few phrases loads of people do that. She's just using some ideas to write childrens stories and theres nothing i have against her for that.
And hannah im sure there r plenty of kids on this board im 13 <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> {not that i need to tell you that}

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:gad zooks!!!!

Ok your getting me wrong.What in the heck happend to my previous post?I was going to ask you what type of charectaristics can you find about HP's attitude and the charecters in LOTR?Like does HP tell the truth?Or did he save Ginny because she was his best friend's sis or just cause he didnt want to live with the muggles?Now why did Frodo go to save people he never even Know?Or why did Merry go and tell the truth after he disobeyed Theoden?See it's not just cause of simalarities in the book that I'm arguing about it's also the fact that HP's ATTITUDE is not an attitude I'd want a hero to have.Hey Hannah3 don't feel bad I turned 13 on Jan.28th only a few months ago.'Elen sila lumenn omentilmo'welcome to the barrow downs forum and webpage.
a toatally ecstatic
Sam Gamgee

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:gad zooks!!!!

It could be argued that Frodo had a perfectly good interest in 'going to save people he didn't know': if Sauron got the Ring, he'd be dead/enslaved, too.

But, moving right along...

I can't quite see what you're trying to argue. Are you saying that Harry Potter is inferior in quality, or morally inferior, or both? How is this related to Tolkien? Is it just that you prefer Tolkien's works, or do you think there's some element of Rowling 'mocking' Tolkien?

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

I found this at Hagrid's Hut:

UKMCLive: Kissa371 asks...Your Harry Potter books remind me of JRR Tolkien's Hobbit and Lord of the Rings triology. (My niece is borrowing my Tolkien books to keep her busy until your next book.) Are you a Tolkien fan? Did his work influence the Harry Potter series?

JKR Live: Well, I love the Hobbit, but I think, if you set aside the fact that the books overlap in terms of dragons &amp; wands &amp; wizards, the Harry Potter books are very different, especially in tone. Tolkien created a whole mythology, I don't think anyone could claim that I have done that. On the other hand...he didn't have Dudley ;o)



There!


What's wrong with Harry's attitude? He'd have saved Ginny whether he was Ron's sister or not, simply because he's nice. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

i agree, its pointless to demean a well-known childrens author just because they have simularities to Tolkien. Oh, sure they have some names the same but JKR doesnt completely copy him and the stories are totally different so are the charactors

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo. </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:I'm wasting my breath.

Re read my past posts and figure out what I'm trying to get at.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

Elenanna: I thought that most of the names in HP were based on Latin or were anagrams? I could be wrong, mind you, but I've never seen any names of people in HP in common with Tolkien, and I think I'd have noticed if I did. (Then again, I've only read the 1st 3 HP books.)

Sam: (I'm sorry, but my formal debating side just kicked in... <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) It's generally considered to be bad form to not argue a clear case and then expect people to understand what you're trying to get at. What point are you trying to make?

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

karkaroth? in the silm the wolf, not huan or drauglin the one that eats beren,s hand. (i dont know the exact spelling...)

Visit my site at http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140Lorien</a>

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:I'm wasting my breath.

No really, I don't see what point you're making. wormtongue and wormtail is the only real thing I noticed, and 'he who must not be named' with 'he who we do not name', as I already said. Otherwise, they do, as Zoe said, come from latin and legends.
Sirius, who can become a dog = a dog constalation or star, I forget which.
Erised (the mirror) = Desire backwards.
Minerva = a Goddess.
Dumbledore = bumblebee (old english).

I can give you a full list but not here, if you're interested - anyway, almost every name has a meaning connected with the character, Vol de mort, flight of death (french), and just about everything else.


~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

The points I'm getting at are,#1 LOTR is WAY above HP in writing,because of the excellent plot,and cause it's a new world -Tolkien made up the Hobbits and Ents and all of middle earth-.#2Hp's moral charectaristics-what moral charecteristics?- STINK,BAD compared to Tolkiens charecters.Why does Hp lie about the muraders map?'Cause he doesnt want to face the few consequences.Why does Hagrid raise an illegal dragon in his hut?Because he-and others-dont give a darn about the law,but when the concequences come they start carring all of a sudden.And here's a couple questions that you can answer,k? Why dont the charecters in LOTR lie?Why do they ask forgiveness for their wrongs?,Why?-if there are any more whys add them ok?-And H3 wormtounge and he who must not be named are all you can think of?I can think of dozens, the HP mountain troll and &quot;the Hobbit' mountain trolls-they have scales and are dull witted-,the womping willow and old man willow-both are dangerous,located near a body of water,and both are willows-,Hagrid and Beorn-they live in huts up against woods, both are giants with black beards,and they both love animals-,the forbidden forest and mirkwood-both are dark with giant spiders living in them and theres a path that needs to be stayed on-, just to name a few.
Hope that explained Z
The still somewhat ticked
Samwise Gamgee

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[Aldaron]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

Well, folks, we're not going to change Samwise's mind about this. Rowling's Harry Potter books tell an entirely different sort of story, and JKR's own words say that there is a difference in tone. Tolkien took on events that would change the face of Middle Earth. Rowling shows us the growth and advancement of HP and his friends as they go through a school of magic. Each of these writers has done what they set out to do. Rowling didn't set out to write another LotR. She has succeeded more than adequately at what she set out to do. And of course we acknowledge that Tolkien also accomplished what he set out to do. Perhaps his goal was more lofty. If attempting a larger story and succeeding is what Samwise means, then he is correct. But you have to admit that Rowling has succeeded also and sure has made a lot of kids into readers. And guess what? They'll get to Tolkien sooner or later.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Harry Potter

Sam: Frankly, if every book I read was full of people who do the right thing, all the time, and never have any weaknesses, I'd give up on reading altogether.

Of course Harry Potter isn't full of wonderful people who always do exactly what they should. Just like the real world isn't full of wonderful people who always do what they should. Thus, if an otherwise ordinary character does something great, it's even better. If a perfect character did something great, no-one would care.

BTW: I wouldn't really count the troll example. Trolls were not invented by Tolkien. Traditionally, trolls are fairly stupid, too. You've hardly got grounds to claim plagiarism.

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[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

Oh, this is ridiculous....

OK look, I'll try take them one by one.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1)LOTR is WAY above HP in writing,because of the excellent plot,and cause it's a new world -Tolkien made up the Hobbits and Ents and all of middle earth-.<hr></blockquote>

That's true. Tolkein created a different world, different creatures, and so on. The charm - for me and many others - in HP is that it's in this world. I can relate to some of the characters - Hermione, for one, is just like me about SPEW, I'm very into animal rights - where would I find that in a world where everything is different? I love middle earth, but I also love the smaller world she created. Because I can almost believe in it.
If your definition of a better book is 'longer, very unreal' then yes, you're 100% right. but that's not MY definition.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 2Hp's moral charectaristics-what moral charecteristics?- STINK,BAD compared to Tolkiens charecters.<hr></blockquote>

He's a school boy. So what if he lies about maps and doesn't do his homework? You'll notice most children don't do their homework occasionally and tell lies because they don't want the punishment and problems that follow the truth. It's not important. You know, I've been to lots of places where religious people talk about how HP books are a bad influence and so on and so on, because the characters tell lies and the teachers still like them and they're not properly punished for what they do.
Each time, I've stared and thought, does it matter? Harry is brave, he's nice to people - well, most people - he's not very clever like Hermione, he doesn't show off, doesn't enjoy his fame, tries to be normal, and is altogether good. Does it matter that he tells an occasional lie? He often has good reason for it. Take the marauders map. How would it be if he told? His friends would be in trouble. As to Hagrid, who cares? He loves animals too much.

The characters in the LoTR don't lie because... well. Where would a character lie in LotR? Tell me where a character would have lied but didn't. A situation like the Maurauders Map, and then I'll tell you.

They ask forgiveness because they know they've done something very wrong and they're grown up and mature. Unlike Harry. Again, I need references. What does Harry do that he should ask forgiveness for and he doesn't? what does A L.R. character do that he does ask forgiveness for?

Finally, all the similarities - Trolls are always, as Zoe says, stupid and so on. JK uses traditional animals - though not always very well-known ones - Hippogriffs, Basilisks, etc.
There is a similarity between the two willows, but like I tell you she hadn't READ L.R. at the time - it was in an interview somewhere - the One Ring, I think. Saying that 'people kept asking if I'd read tLotR once I was famous for my own books, and it was embarrasing that I had to keep saying no, so I read it and yes, I liked it.' Or something of the sort.
Sorry, but who is Beorn? I haven't read the Silmarrilion properly and I don't remember anyone in the L.R.
You can look for similarities everywhere and find them. You just need to look hard enough. I don't think JKR copied Tolkien's Mirkwood with the forbidden forest, but I can't prove otherwise. (Same with the willows.)
And if she did - so? Why does that make you so mad? I don't see a problem myself.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 76</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

hannah beorn in the HOBBIT where the eagles drop them before mirkwood. REMEMBER?

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 14</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

*Blushes*

Sorry! OK, well, let me think. He's the bear-person isn't he? UNlike Hagrid.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 79</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:sorry 'bout that Z didnt think straight

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> yes. btw i agree w/ u about everything else

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Hannah,you must not've read the Return of the king straight.What does Merry do when he goes over to the dieing Theoden in &quot;The battle of the Pellenor fields&quot;?He asks forgivness,for DISOBEYING Theoden's command not to go into battle,he ADMITS that he did something wrong.And what does Frodo do in the Cirith Ungol tower after he accuses Sam of theft?He asks FORGIVENESS from his servant,showing he admits he was in the wrong,and that he needs it from even his servant.Make sense?HP would'nt do that if he snapped at Colin,or if he disobeyed Lupin.And as for someone lying in LOTR Pippin could've said that Merry dropped the pepple down the well in Moria or Sam could've said &quot;I just came by and I just got to the window,I did'nt hear anything&quot;or Pippin could've said&quot;the stone rolled from under your head Gandalf and it came undone and I could'nt take my eyes away&quot;.See LOTR charecters are only human and can lie and disobey but at least they ADMIT it.Unlike HP.And I would'nt want a hero that lied and then did'nt admit it.Understand now?And Zoe your right but there is so much more I'm trying to get at-hopefully the above explained,a bit-.
still somewhat ticked
Samwise Gamgee
PS.Hannah how old are you?You should try the sil.


</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 281</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Okay, so you think that the heroes in LotR are 'good', but in HP they're 'bad', and somehow this affects the merit of a work. I disagree entirely, but I don't think we'll ever come to a conclusion, so how about we drop it, since we're getting nowhere.

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 161</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
To beat a dead horse...

I have read HP, and liked it a lot, but I never really noticed any similarities between it and LotR, except for the common fantasy ones. If you want to see a cheap imitation, try The Sword of Shannara. Plagiarism if I ever saw it... but I've mentioned that in other threads, so I'll leave that horse alone and go on to the next one:

HP's morals. Okay, they could be better, definitely, but you've got to remember:
1. Where he's coming from. He was orphaned as a baby and has lived with a nasty family that despises and fears him nearly all his life. We can't all be Cinderellas here. Plus, at school, he has very mean enemies, both teachers and classmates, often disguised as friends, not to mention powerful, evil wizards out to kill him, his friends, and a lot of other people.
2. He's a kid. He's still learning about things, hitting those &quot;rebellious teenage years.&quot; And he does apologize for things, just generally in that reluctant, embarassed way that most people have (because who likes to admit they were wrong?)
3. He isn't a model of purity, but he's still trying to do the right thing. He sticks up for people, saves them, and learns that even people who don't like each other can still be on the same side.

I could probably go on, but I think this is quite long enough. Basically I think he is doing the best he can under the burdens he has.

They cannot conquer forever!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 53</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
re:good point...

butwhat about Frodo?He has a burden,majorly,alot more than HP,he's got THREE enemys that want the ring-Saruman,Sauron,and Gollum- and he gets wounded while trying to fufill the quest -which he fails-.And does he act like Hp?Heck no!And what about Pippin,he's still a tween.Is he rebellious?No, and not all teens are rebellious.HP doesnt have to act like he does just because someone wants to kill him.And yes Hannah you're right in saying I do'nt like Hp, and here's why,his charecteristics are'nt charecteristics I'd want in a hero not the fact that there're simalarites between him and Tolkien.As for this agrument ending?Well I dont think it will for a looooong time-I really dont want it to-so keep it up -you've got some good points it's just that I do'nt agree with most of them-.
A somewhat cooled down
Samwise of the shire

</p>

[mwcfrodo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh, I can't resist!

Oh, I can't resist stirring this up some more.

Frodo (whom I adore) not only told lies, but lived a lie for several months when he was planning to exit from the Shire. He led everyone to believe that his money had run out and he was returning to Buckland to live a more quiet, simple life. NOT!!

And when he fell off the table in Bree, he told everyone, &quot;I didn't vanish, I crawled away to chat with my good buddy Strider.&quot; NOT!!! Wait--and hadn't Frodo just lied about his name? No, it was Merry who lied to Butterbur: &quot;And this is my friend Mr. Underhill&quot; NOT!! (Nasty hobbitses, lying hobbitses...)

Finally, okay not LOTR, but JRRT) Bilbo certainly lied about how he got the Ring. Indeed, only Frodo &amp; Gandalf (and maybe Sam who'd been eavesdropping) knew the true story until the Council of Rivendell. Speaking of morality and ethics...for what it says of Sam's character, eavesdropping is generally not considered morally correct behavior.

BUT, regarding one of the ORIGINAL points of this thread--plagarism. I've read all the Harry Potter books and I found only one rather distrubing similarity. That was in Book 3 when Scabber (in human form) pleads with the others to spare him. His pleas are very, very reminiscent of Gollum's pleas to Frodo. &quot;Don't hurt me master, good master.&quot; I had heard rumors of possible infringementlawsuits by the Tolkien estate and wondered what they were thinking until I hit that scene.

One cannot copyright an idea, only the unique expression of that idea. To me, the tone and phrasing of that scene skated way closer to the edge of &quot;unique expression&quot; than I feel comfortable about. (As a managing editor, I'd undoubtably ask my writers to rephrase anything that close to a previously existing source, just to be on the safe side.) On the other hand, the amount of text is very small in proportion to the book's overall length and the characters' situations and overall plot/tone are very different, so I can't see the Tolkien Estate charging into court -- they undoubtably have bigger issues with the &quot;expanded&quot; role of Arwen in the movie. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">



</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

((Twelve. And I did read the Silmarrilion... in parts... <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ))

OK, I was utterly outraged reading some ridiculous things Sam just said, so I'll have to answer before I can approvingly read the replies:

I'm not sure I read that properly. You want Harry apologizing to Colin? He would if he was particularly horrible or something, but for heavens sake! Does Sam apologize to Bill Ferny for chucking apples at him? Not that Harry ever showed something worse than fairly quiet irritation at Colin's pestering.

Secondly. You think someone oculd lie - to Gandalf?!! he's WIZARD. He knew even when SARUMAN lied to him. And you think a hobbit might consider it and get away with it?
Does Harry Potter incriminate his friends by lying? No. In fact, when Hermione lies in the first book, she does so to show them she's grateful that they saved her life. And so, I think 'Pippin could have said it was Merry' is just plain stupid. Harry Potter wouldn't have.

Sam is a lot more than a servant. I was never quite able to think of him as a servant. He's Frodo's best friend once they leave the shire. In case it escaped your notice, (Zoe, don't read this) Ron asks Harry's FORGIVENESS for disbelieving him in book 4 - and Harry is big enough to let him off it, nice enough to say 'you don't have to apologize, forget it.'

As to Pippin and the Palantir, that was the first thing I thought of when I wondered where they could have lied and didn't - but the idea is ridiculous. Pippin was a terrified wreck at that moment. If he'd been lying about it, Gandalf would have known it, if not at that point then afterwards, when Gandalf makes him look up and sees the truth in his eyes. Firstly he was too upset to lie, secondly it was not in his best intrest. He was in trouble for having looked at all. and if he'd lied about it, things would not have returned to their (fairly) notmal course - Gandalf wouldn't have accepted him back into the company with 'You remain a fool, but an honest fool.'

Now I read the replies...

Thank you everyone!

Now Sam... To the next argument...

OK, fine, Frodo has a large burden. Three enimies. And he doesn't stand up to it so well, does he now? One of the enimies is no worry till the very end - but anyway - first, he's an ADULT, 50, he can take it, mostly. As to Pippin in his tweens, please remember that when you are 20+ you are no longer considered a 'rebelious teenager', also, I don't know what tennaged hobbits are like.
When I said he doesn't manage so well, I mean look at his behavior in Mordor. He wasn't always the model of kindness, was he? talking to Sam like that. Even if he asked to be forgiven later.
Harry Potter is a child. With an unhappy childhood, and as soon as he becomes 11 he is happy - but it's not all joy, is it? How would Frodo feel if everyone in the company except Sam was turned against him? (Book 4, whole school except Gryffindors hate Harry.) Or if he had to hear his parents die? Or if he was faced with their murderer?
In each of these situations - excepting, maybe, the first, in which he just went around being miserable - Harry acted in a way I have to admire.

And besides... look at other Tolkien characters! take Turin. He DEFINATELY wasn't a model to follow, or had particularly good morals. But you can't help liking him.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000108>Hannah 3</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.clipartcastle.com/anim3/shining_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/17/01 4:32:59 am

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

Firstly, I didn't see any obvious similarities b/w LoTr and HP except the genre of course.
Secondly, when authors make characters overtly moral, we tend to call them boring. The word 'prig' comes to mind. LoTr has lies and deception of a subtler kind. And they're 'understandable', so to say. Because it's all for the Ring. In HP, the moral kinks are, perhaps, inexcusable because the magnitude of the evil seems less, though personally I think Voldemort is as dangerous as Sauron.

It's been said a zillion times but What the hell, I&quot;ll say it again. Sam seems to forget that while the characters in LoTR are mature, the HP characters are teenagers.
Anyway, I like HP a lot, though I feel the craze is unwarranted.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 25</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:Whoooooaaaaaaaaa

But even the genre is different. Harry Potter, although magical, is very human. 'Magical realism' or something (did I already say that?) when although there IS magic it's very believable. Not Tolkien at all. They're just different types.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>