elves and death - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rilarien884 · 09-12-2003, 12:54 AM

I'm not quite sure what happens after an elf actually dies, for example in battle? Is it like a passing into something different? Do they have normal burials? What happens? I'm confused, if anyone can explain it to me, I'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks, AL

Annalaliath · 09-12-2003, 01:26 AM

All I know is that they donot pass out of the circles of the world. They donot leave time. They are to remain, even in death. But about burials I have no idea. Read the Letters of JRR Tolkien and you will find some answers there.

Annalaliath

09-12-2003, 08:41 AM

So Elves can die but only when someone tries to kill them? But otherwise they are immortal? PLease explain somebody!!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Mariska Greenleaf · 09-12-2003, 09:01 AM

Elves can die if they are slain , or they can die from grieve. They can also choose to become mortal, like men.
If an elve dies, it isn't really the same as when a man does. His physical shell becomes empty and his spirit is reincarnated in the halls of Mandos.
After an indeterminated period of time, they can, in some cases, return, but it is not certain what causes this period to end, little is known about that.

I hope this helpes a little... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Annalaliath · 09-12-2003, 12:51 PM

I am sorry but only the half elves could choose to be mortal or not. The only Elf who actually died was Lutien. And only with a direct act of Iluvitar(God). Most would either be reincarnated or their sprits would remain. They couldn't just die as men do. Men pass out of time, while the Elves don't.

Quote:

The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world , to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning -...(The Letters of Jrr Tolkien; letter 131

So elves could not die and only those with a strain of the race of man could choose.

Quote:

In the primary story of Luthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immorality' and become 'mortal' - but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Luthien obtains a brief respite in which both return to Middle earth 'alive' - though not mingling with other people: a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited "imortality': an exception either way. Earendil is Tuor's son & father of Elros( First king of Numenor) and Elrond, Their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Luthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have the power of(irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longgaevus' but mortal, so all his decedents are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn ( who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Numenorean treble, that of men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel- have to make their choices. Arwen is not the 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal has left the world of time) but a decedent very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn( whose love-story elsewhere re ounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) She 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignat. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain a while.

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. but they are only created spirts- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels-revered, therefore, but not worshipful; and are potently 'subcreative', and resident on Earth to which they are bound by love, having assisted in its making and ordering, they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision. ... Imortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case : the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their decedents was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Devine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

letter 153

[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[ September 13, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

Mariska Greenleaf · 09-12-2003, 01:12 PM

Thanks for correcting me!!
I gave a very poor and incorrect explanation ... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Rilarien884 · 09-12-2003, 02:50 PM

Hmmm...interesting. What of the elves that pass before them? Do they meet again or is it like a solitary wandering?

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-12-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

I am sorry but only the half elves could choose to be mortal or not.

To bring further precision to the debate, only a select few Half-Elves were given the choice between mortality and immortality. From memory, they were Luthien, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan. In each case, Iluvatar, through the Valar, allowed them the choice in consequence of the extraordinary acts of valour that they or their predecessors committed. Of those mentioned, only Elrond (and possibly his sons, we don't know) chose immortality.

The choice was not automatic upon them having Elvish blood. The ancestors of the line of Dol Amroth were not given the choice. Neither were the offspring of those who chose mortality (the children of Elros and of Aragorn and Arwen, for example).

Annalaliath · 09-13-2003, 11:53 AM

Well to clarafy, if a Half - elf chooses mortality then his children will be mortal and so on. If a half- elf choses the fate of the elves then his children have the choice. I think that is how it works.

Quote:

The view is that the Half-elven have the power of(irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longgaevus' but mortal, so all his decedents are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn ( who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Numenorean treble, that of men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel- have to make their choices. Arwen is not the 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal has left the world of time) but a decedent very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn( whose love-story elsewhere re ounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) She 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignat. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain a while.

[ September 13, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

[ September 13, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

09-12-2003, 12:54 AM	#1
Rilarien884 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: not middle earth Posts: 13	elves and death I'm not quite sure what happens after an elf actually dies, for example in battle? Is it like a passing into something different? Do they have normal burials? What happens? I'm confused, if anyone can explain it to me, I'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks, AL __________________ The doom(or the gift) of men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world...a grief and envy to the immortal elves... -Silmarillion

09-12-2003, 01:26 AM	#2
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	All I know is that they donot pass out of the circles of the world. They donot leave time. They are to remain, even in death. But about burials I have no idea. Read the Letters of JRR Tolkien and you will find some answers there. Annalaliath __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

09-12-2003, 09:01 AM	#4
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Elves can die if they are slain , or they can die from grieve. They can also choose to become mortal, like men. If an elve dies, it isn't really the same as when a man does. His physical shell becomes empty and his spirit is reincarnated in the halls of Mandos. After an indeterminated period of time, they can, in some cases, return, but it is not certain what causes this period to end, little is known about that. I hope this helpes a little... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

09-12-2003, 01:12 PM	#6
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Thanks for correcting me!! I gave a very poor and incorrect explanation ... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

09-12-2003, 02:50 PM	#7
Rilarien884 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: not middle earth Posts: 13	Hmmm...interesting. What of the elves that pass before them? Do they meet again or is it like a solitary wandering? __________________ The doom(or the gift) of men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world...a grief and envy to the immortal elves... -Silmarillion

09-12-2003, 08:41 AM	#3
Ladybyrn Guest Posts: n/a	So Elves can die but only when someone tries to kill them? But otherwise they are immortal? PLease explain somebody!!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]