I feel that its sad that Tolkien had no room for good Dragons in middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

06-07-2003, 08:12 AM

=( *sigh* It would have been so cool if there were good dragons who helped out the fellowship! =D What thinks you?

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 06-07-2003, 09:09 AM

Though a 'good' dragon might have been interesting, it just wasn't all that possible. I think you should start with the nature of dragons in Middle-earth to see why they weren't good. Read our Dragon Theme.

Niluial · 06-07-2003, 09:59 AM

I like middle-earth the way it is. I am certain Tolkien had reasons to why he did not put good Dragons in middle-earth. Dragons are considered monster like and wicked.. I don’t really think a good dragon would fit the profile… just my opinion. I am sure you get good Dragons in other books.. just not in Middle-Earth.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Meela · 06-07-2003, 01:09 PM

Good dragons = good idea.
It is a shame that they weren't featured in Lotr, but evil dragons are just as good. At least Tolkien didn't leave out dragons altogether.

Iarwain · 06-07-2003, 01:31 PM

Though not in Middle-Earth, Farmer Giles did have dealings with a fairly pleasant dragon. If I could type his name I would, but that is probably one of the most daunting names I've read. Chrysophylax, I think...

Iarwain

Annalaliath · 06-07-2003, 01:53 PM

I think that the "good" dragon idea would not be Middle Earth. Realy! I do think that that is more Dragon lance.But anyway, they(dragons) were created by Melkor(more like corupted somethings) just like Balrogs, Trolls, orcs, and Goblins. So there was no way that there could have been any 'good' dragons in Middle Earth.

I rest my case.

Sapphire_Flame · 06-07-2003, 02:48 PM

I concur. Dragons were created by Melkor, and so would be inherently evil. Those dragons mentioned by Tolkien (Smaug, Glaurung, etc.) certainly prove that point. Personally, I find evil dragons just as facsinating as good dragons; evil dragons have fewer qualms about destroying villages and such, which is much more interesting than good dragons trying not to burn innocent people. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] But that's just me. I am unaccountably fond of evil creatures (dragons, giant spiders, Uruk-hai, xenomorphs...)

Noxomanus · 06-07-2003, 02:49 PM

But couldn't all evil be redeemed?

Annalaliath · 06-07-2003, 05:26 PM

Um this is Middle Earth, not our world. In Middle earth these evil and perverted 'creations' were not able to be changed. They tended to like their evil tendancies. Also the creations of Melkor are not redeamable. Only the children of Iluvatar and his creations. Although this brings in a totaly differnt topic.

Noxomanus · 06-07-2003, 05:40 PM

wasn't there this discussion the other day about orcs actually being redeemable?

Sapphire_Flame · 06-07-2003, 05:47 PM

I think so, Nox. Check with the Search function. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lindril Arvilya · 06-07-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

But couldn't all evil be redeemed?

You've been watching too much Star Wars.

There always has to be a few distinctive baddies that cannot be confused with the good ones. Big, scaly, fire-breathing, short-tempered, eats small creatures... kinda fit the bill?

Niluial · 06-08-2003, 01:00 AM

Quote:

There always has to be a few distinctive baddies that cannot be confused with the good ones. Big, scaly, fire-breathing, short-tempered, eats small creatures... kinda fit the bill?

I could not agree anymore!!

But come on.. what would Middle-earth be without our atrocious, ravenous, bloodcurdling, fire breathing friends?......

[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Niluial ]

Annalaliath · 06-08-2003, 01:12 AM

Boring that is what it would be without the dragons!!!!! I mean there are so many good guys that need redeeming that there had got to be the bad guy who don't want it. Not to mention what would it be like if Bilbo sat dewn to afternoon tea with Smaug?

Niluial · 06-08-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Boring that is what it would be without the dragons!!!!! I mean there are so many good guys that need redeeming that there had got to be the bad guy who don't want it. Not to mention what would it be like if Bilbo sat dewn to afternoon tea with Smaug?

Excellent point! And it is so true; there would be no action without the evil dragon, just plain dull. And like you said, there are enough good guys! Just my perspective...

Manardariel · 06-08-2003, 03:02 PM

Though I love Dragons, you have to remeber Tolkien was writing in the spirit of mythology. And there, dragons are not good. Knights go out to kill them, so they can marry their beloved princess. (Of course, unless the dragon is a GIRL dragon...and the kight all green and stinky [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) But, like I said, it wouldn´t have fitted.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-08-2003, 03:14 PM

Hmmm, Manardariel, girl dragons and green knights - whatever could you be talking about? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lush · 06-08-2003, 03:52 PM

No room for good spiders either! Tsk.

Sapphire_Flame · 06-09-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

No room for good spiders either!

Now that's a real shame. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I dunno. Evil dragons and spiders add a sort of, shall we say, interesting quality to Middle-earth. I mean, how fun could it have been with only good dragons and other creepy things? Think about it......

Yavanna228 · 06-09-2003, 02:28 PM

I am probably having a mental lapse here, but if Melkor could not 'create' things in the truest sense of the word, only twist and corrupt things already in existence, what are dragons from? Feel free to beat me up for my ignorance. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peace

Noxomanus · 06-09-2003, 02:30 PM

I believe he bred them from crocs or monitor-lizards or something. Too bad those don't seem to exist in ME (or at least the northern lands)

Mahal · 06-10-2003, 02:32 PM

I think they were added with the music of Melkor...because then he could create things for the world...just like ents and beasts.

Amanaduial the archer · 06-10-2003, 03:18 PM

It would be like having good balrogs. Just not right. And with wings [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] .

Annalaliath · 06-10-2003, 06:26 PM

And skin.... Let us just say for the sake of those who wonder. They were evil from time in memorial and so in the end they don't want to be good.

Aragost · 06-11-2003, 01:41 PM

Good Dragons?, and I'm going apple picking with Scooby-Doo

No Room for Good Spiders Either Even if there was room Tolkien would not have put them in. If I remember corectly he did not like spiders because he was bitten by one in the family garden as a child.

06-22-2003, 10:37 AM

Having good spiders is just wrong. Imagine a huge spider that can talk. It eats humans, elves, hobbits and such. Now can you imagine such a creature being all cute and cuddely. Even if it didn't eat people it still would be a horrifying creature. Big spiders that can talk are not good! Okay I've calmed down now. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I just don't like spiders.

Annalaliath · 06-24-2003, 12:51 PM

Did you know that spiders live on an all liquid diet. They have to inject their poison into the prey to predigest it.

Okay after that gross out, I would say that(no matter how much I love spiders)the spiders and the dragons both were all evil. The way that Melkor and all had corrupted them lead them to the point where they did not want to be redeemed. Shelob and her children(who she tended to eat) were all evil, she did not want to be good, after all she vomited darkness. Her children, many monsters and spiders, would not want to be good because they were evil. And after all this is not Disney(or Big Idea). I could go on about this for days repeating myself in different ways, but this has all been said before, hasn't it?

06-07-2003, 08:12 AM	#1
ElvenDragon Guest Posts: n/a	I feel that its sad that Tolkien had no room for good Dragons in middle earth =( sigh It would have been so cool if there were good dragons who helped out the fellowship! =D What thinks you?

06-07-2003, 09:09 AM	#2
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Though a 'good' dragon might have been interesting, it just wasn't all that possible. I think you should start with the nature of dragons in Middle-earth to see why they weren't good. Read our Dragon Theme. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

06-07-2003, 09:59 AM	#3
Niluial Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In the darkness of white Posts: 601	I like middle-earth the way it is. I am certain Tolkien had reasons to why he did not put good Dragons in middle-earth. Dragons are considered monster like and wicked.. I don’t really think a good dragon would fit the profile… just my opinion. I am sure you get good Dragons in other books.. just not in Middle-Earth.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless. My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog My Magical Site

06-07-2003, 01:09 PM	#4
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Good dragons = good idea. It is a shame that they weren't featured in Lotr, but evil dragons are just as good. At least Tolkien didn't leave out dragons altogether. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

06-07-2003, 01:31 PM	#5
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Though not in Middle-Earth, Farmer Giles did have dealings with a fairly pleasant dragon. If I could type his name I would, but that is probably one of the most daunting names I've read. Chrysophylax, I think... Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

06-07-2003, 01:53 PM	#6
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	I think that the "good" dragon idea would not be Middle Earth. Realy! I do think that that is more Dragon lance.But anyway, they(dragons) were created by Melkor(more like corupted somethings) just like Balrogs, Trolls, orcs, and Goblins. So there was no way that there could have been any 'good' dragons in Middle Earth. I rest my case. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

06-07-2003, 02:48 PM	#7
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	I concur. Dragons were created by Melkor, and so would be inherently evil. Those dragons mentioned by Tolkien (Smaug, Glaurung, etc.) certainly prove that point. Personally, I find evil dragons just as facsinating as good dragons; evil dragons have fewer qualms about destroying villages and such, which is much more interesting than good dragons trying not to burn innocent people. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] But that's just me. I am unaccountably fond of evil creatures (dragons, giant spiders, Uruk-hai, xenomorphs...) __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

06-07-2003, 02:49 PM	#8
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	But couldn't all evil be redeemed? __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-07-2003, 05:26 PM	#9
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	Um this is Middle Earth, not our world. In Middle earth these evil and perverted 'creations' were not able to be changed. They tended to like their evil tendancies. Also the creations of Melkor are not redeamable. Only the children of Iluvatar and his creations. Although this brings in a totaly differnt topic. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

06-07-2003, 05:40 PM	#10
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	wasn't there this discussion the other day about orcs actually being redeemable? __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-07-2003, 05:47 PM	#11
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	I think so, Nox. Check with the Search function. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

06-08-2003, 01:12 AM	#14
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	Boring that is what it would be without the dragons!!!!! I mean there are so many good guys that need redeeming that there had got to be the bad guy who don't want it. Not to mention what would it be like if Bilbo sat dewn to afternoon tea with Smaug? __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

06-08-2003, 03:02 PM	#16
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	Though I love Dragons, you have to remeber Tolkien was writing in the spirit of mythology. And there, dragons are not good. Knights go out to kill them, so they can marry their beloved princess. (Of course, unless the dragon is a GIRL dragon...and the kight all green and stinky [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) But, like I said, it wouldn´t have fitted. __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

06-08-2003, 03:14 PM	#17
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Hmmm, Manardariel, girl dragons and green knights - whatever could you be talking about? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-08-2003, 03:52 PM	#18
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	No room for good spiders either! Tsk. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

06-09-2003, 02:28 PM	#20
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	I am probably having a mental lapse here, but if Melkor could not 'create' things in the truest sense of the word, only twist and corrupt things already in existence, what are dragons from? Feel free to beat me up for my ignorance. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

06-09-2003, 02:30 PM	#21
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	I believe he bred them from crocs or monitor-lizards or something. Too bad those don't seem to exist in ME (or at least the northern lands) __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-10-2003, 02:32 PM	#22
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	I think they were added with the music of Melkor...because then he could create things for the world...just like ents and beasts. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

06-10-2003, 03:18 PM	#23
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	It would be like having good balrogs. Just not right. And with wings [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

06-10-2003, 06:26 PM	#24
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	And skin.... Let us just say for the sake of those who wonder. They were evil from time in memorial and so in the end they don't want to be good. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

06-11-2003, 01:41 PM	#25
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	Good Dragons?, and I'm going apple picking with Scooby-Doo No Room for Good Spiders Either Even if there was room Tolkien would not have put them in. If I remember corectly he did not like spiders because he was bitten by one in the family garden as a child. __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will

06-22-2003, 10:37 AM	#26
BobTheGrey Guest Posts: n/a	Having good spiders is just wrong. Imagine a huge spider that can talk. It eats humans, elves, hobbits and such. Now can you imagine such a creature being all cute and cuddely. Even if it didn't eat people it still would be a horrifying creature. Big spiders that can talk are not good! Okay I've calmed down now. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I just don't like spiders.

06-24-2003, 12:51 PM	#27
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	Did you know that spiders live on an all liquid diet. They have to inject their poison into the prey to predigest it. Okay after that gross out, I would say that(no matter how much I love spiders)the spiders and the dragons both were all evil. The way that Melkor and all had corrupted them lead them to the point where they did not want to be redeemed. Shelob and her children(who she tended to eat) were all evil, she did not want to be good, after all she vomited darkness. Her children, many monsters and spiders, would not want to be good because they were evil. And after all this is not Disney(or Big Idea). I could go on about this for days repeating myself in different ways, but this has all been said before, hasn't it? __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!