The Nazgûl: Proof that you can't go home again? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Childlike Empress · 10-20-2002, 12:44 AM

My question is this: The Nazgûl are generally accepted to live in Minas Morgul. However, since they are not alive, they have no need of food, sleep, or shelter, why dod they need a home? Couldn't they just dematerialize and float around anywhere they like until Sauron needs them?
If they're just using Minas Morgul as a "base of operations", why do they need even that? Persumably Sauron can communacate with them nonverbally (like, telepathically or something), so they'd be able to recieve orders from him anywhere in Middle-earth. Or do they use the Palantir there for communication?

Kalimac · 10-20-2002, 01:05 AM

Wow, good question, Empress! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Never thought of that one. My guess would be this: Sauron, even when he's not active, so to speak, will never let any of his creatures go free unless he has to. If there is no specific reason to set the Nazgul loose, he'll keep them close to home so he can better keep an Eye on them. Besides, they may be useful servants to have around in other ways - he may even draw a little extra power from having them around, and since the closer they are to him, the greater their strength is, if that were the case he would every reason for keeping them as close as possible.

I admit that's just a guess - it's hard to know exactly what the Nazgul could do for Sauron in peacetime - somehow one can't see them exactly hanging out by the water cooler and having bull sessions with Sauron as the ringleader - but presumably since they were great kings during life and learned quite a few skills with their own rings, they're capable of strategizing or keeping his assembled troops in line or something similar. But it's equally true that even if they were allowed to float around, disembodied at will, there wouldn't be any real risk to Sauron - it's not as if they'd ever leave him, or not come back when he needs them.

Ultimately, though, I don't think it matters exactly what the Nazgul could do for him during peacetime. Gandalf, very early on FOTR, comments about Sauron that he has no use for hobbits at all, but that he would crush them for the principle of the thing, so to speak - "Hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits as happy and free." Even if the Nazgul could do absolutely nothing for him most of the time, he would still keep them pent in the tower. Why? The principle of the thing - never give your slaves freedom unless it directly benefits you, always cage them up if there will be no direct ill-effects to you.

lathspell · 10-20-2002, 05:08 AM

Not all the Nazgûl were caged in Minas Morgul. Khamul, the Second of the Nazgul, for example, was most of the time in Dol Guldur, even after Sauron departed there. Many I guess were always on their paths due East and South to tell the people of Khand and Harad that Sauron was Lord of All and all that crap.

You seem to point out that Sauron didn't use them until FotR. I don't think so. He made use of them as best as he could, be it wasn't known to the White Council for he kept it a great secret, knowing them to be his strongest servants and that their attack would be even greater when done so in surprise. Sauron was always in search of the Ring, looking from Barad-dur. I guess therefore that he explained his plans to the Nazgul and left the gaining of an army and governing of that army to them.

I don't think the Nazgul saw Minas Morgul as 'home', but just as the place Sauron said them to bread an army in. The same with Dol Guldur.
I guess Sauron could talk telepathically to them, but not over such great distances. The Palantir is a good. I guess that was one of the greatest instruments he had in his possession. Because of it he could see many things:
- the governing of his Army
- the governing of the Army of Gondor
and with these things he discovered the other places where the Palantiri are, and could do very great damage:
- corruption of Saruman
- the craze of Denethor
He may have used the Palantir also to transmit messages to his chief Servants. Yet about the Palantiri I'm not so sure what their abilities were. I should read the UT again.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Kalimac,

Quote:

keep an Eye on them.

Nice! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

akhtene · 10-20-2002, 06:30 PM

What I can add... Although they were ghostly (or what) they could make good use of material objects, like cloaks, swords etc, and also horses. And these had to be stored somewhere, repared and cared for. That's for a "base of operations".

And besides, the reason for keeping them 'caged' for some time could be mere secrecy. What good it could do if the Nine were wondering around, scaring decent folk and thus revealing Sauron's intentions before he was ready.

Susan Delgado · 10-21-2002, 11:14 PM

But without their physical trappings, they're invisible. No one else would be able to percieve them, so it wouldn't compromise Sauron's plans.

akhtene · 10-23-2002, 04:10 PM

Isn't it said somewhere that the Nazgul inflicted fear just by being around, no matter in the visible form or not?
And anyway, what would they be doing, hanging about unnoticed by anyone?

10-20-2002, 12:44 AM	#1
Childlike Empress Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Fantasia Posts: 109	The Nazgûl: Proof that you can't go home again? My question is this: The Nazgûl are generally accepted to live in Minas Morgul. However, since they are not alive, they have no need of food, sleep, or shelter, why dod they need a home? Couldn't they just dematerialize and float around anywhere they like until Sauron needs them? If they're just using Minas Morgul as a "base of operations", why do they need even that? Persumably Sauron can communacate with them nonverbally (like, telepathically or something), so they'd be able to recieve orders from him anywhere in Middle-earth. Or do they use the Palantir there for communication? __________________ Fantasia is with you in your heart. It is the story of which we are a part. Take my hand, come with me, join in my Neverending Story.

10-20-2002, 01:05 AM	#2
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Wow, good question, Empress! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Never thought of that one. My guess would be this: Sauron, even when he's not active, so to speak, will never let any of his creatures go free unless he has to. If there is no specific reason to set the Nazgul loose, he'll keep them close to home so he can better keep an Eye on them. Besides, they may be useful servants to have around in other ways - he may even draw a little extra power from having them around, and since the closer they are to him, the greater their strength is, if that were the case he would every reason for keeping them as close as possible. I admit that's just a guess - it's hard to know exactly what the Nazgul could do for Sauron in peacetime - somehow one can't see them exactly hanging out by the water cooler and having bull sessions with Sauron as the ringleader - but presumably since they were great kings during life and learned quite a few skills with their own rings, they're capable of strategizing or keeping his assembled troops in line or something similar. But it's equally true that even if they were allowed to float around, disembodied at will, there wouldn't be any real risk to Sauron - it's not as if they'd ever leave him, or not come back when he needs them. Ultimately, though, I don't think it matters exactly what the Nazgul could do for him during peacetime. Gandalf, very early on FOTR, comments about Sauron that he has no use for hobbits at all, but that he would crush them for the principle of the thing, so to speak - "Hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits as happy and free." Even if the Nazgul could do absolutely nothing for him most of the time, he would still keep them pent in the tower. Why? The principle of the thing - never give your slaves freedom unless it directly benefits you, always cage them up if there will be no direct ill-effects to you. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

10-20-2002, 06:30 PM	#4
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	What I can add... Although they were ghostly (or what) they could make good use of material objects, like cloaks, swords etc, and also horses. And these had to be stored somewhere, repared and cared for. That's for a "base of operations". And besides, the reason for keeping them 'caged' for some time could be mere secrecy. What good it could do if the Nine were wondering around, scaring decent folk and thus revealing Sauron's intentions before he was ready. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

10-21-2002, 11:14 PM	#5
Susan Delgado The Perished Flame Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: behind my eyes Posts: 1,096	But without their physical trappings, they're invisible. No one else would be able to percieve them, so it wouldn't compromise Sauron's plans. __________________ "Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all 'til we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"

10-23-2002, 04:10 PM	#6
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Isn't it said somewhere that the Nazgul inflicted fear just by being around, no matter in the visible form or not? And anyway, what would they be doing, hanging about unnoticed by anyone? __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...