Why did Gandalf say this....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

At the gates of Minas Tirith, Gandalf tells the Gondorians that Pippin is a valiant 'man'. The soldiers, of course, weren't having it and neither was Pippin.

So why did Gandalf bother?

[Evenstar1069]

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking. I think Gandalf said Pippin was a valiant man was as in he wasn't a kid which is what everyone seemed to think when they first saw him. Sorry if this isn't what you were asking.

[dragoneyes]

Maybe he didn't want to bother explaining to the men who Pippin was or what he was so he could get through quicker. It didn't work but it was worth a try!

[Tar-Palantir]

Gandalf knew Pippin was valiant and was telling the truth, whether or not Pippin or the Guards choose to believe it for themselves. He soon proves that he is anyway. Pippin was very courageous.

[Nimrodel]

I think Dragoneyes and Evenstar1069 are both on the right track. Trying to explain what a Hobbit is and why you are carring a sleeping one in your arms is bound to take a lot of time when you are in a hurry, not to mention explaining that he is not a child.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The guards weren't allowed to let any random through without questioning them. Gandalf couldn't have expected them to say "Alright, if he's a Man you can enter."

Disregarding the point that the soldiers had already heard of Halflings, Gandalf could surely have said something like "This is Peregrin Took, a Halfling from the North, whom your Lord would be most eager to meet."

Then he could have waltzed into the City immediately.

[dragoneyes]

He had alread said

I will vouch for him at the seat of Denethor

That did not let them pass, it didn't really matter what he was, just so long as he wasn't evil. Had Gandalf had known they wouldn't had let him go through after calling him a man, maybe he would have said what you said, who knows?

Well Pippin was extremely Valient for a Hobbit,I'm Sure thats what Gandalf meant.

[doug*platypus]

The words "man" and "woman" are properly used of Hobbits as well as Men. Maybe it was a sign that Pippin was growing up, since he was the youngest of the Fellowship, or that Gandalf's respect for him was growing.

It was certainly nicer than saying, "With me is Peregrin son of Paladin. Thanks to this little punk, I had to fight a Balrog! Not that he ever said sorry!"

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

By the way guys, I know Pippin is valiant. Its the 'Man' word I was asking about.

Doug. Are you sure the words 'Man' and 'Woman' are used in reference to Hobbits? If you could list an example (other than the Minas Tirith one!) I would be most grateful.

[Mattius]

Well he used the word 'man' because hobbits are a type of men. And also valient because he was valient and brave. Gandalf knew hobbits could be moved to do great things, he after all chose Bilbo to accompany the dwarves to the Lonely Mountain.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I wonder if Gandalf said this not only to indicate his own conception of Peregrin as having grown up to "man" status, rather than the underage hobbit he is in appearance, but also to see how it would cause the others to react. Throughout the tale, hobbits are seriously undervalued by Men, most notably Boromir. Perhaps this is a test of the Men in Minas Tirith, a sort of "first impression" test to see the mood and set of the city. Just an odd thought! Carry on! I like discussions like this!

Cheers,
Lyta (serious Pippin-fancier)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Its true that the guards thought the claim was highly amusing and I suppose Gandalf could have taken from this that, well, I don't know, maybe that the guards weren't too wise? Like Gandalf didn't know that already!

I'm babbling here but it was hardly as if Gandalf half-expected a reply of "No man is he, a Halfling perhaps? Well, it is said that their short frame barely holds their huge hearts and they could prove vital in the fortunes of Minas Tirith."

Gandalf must surely have expected a lack of respect for the little Hobbit.

[Birdland]

Doug. Are you sure the words 'Man' and 'Woman' are used in reference to Hobbits?

While Gandalf is technically correct, in that Tolkien states that Hobbits are related to Men, Halfling's themselves don't seem to be too fond of the comparison.

Tolkien seems to avoid the issue of common gender nouns for adult Halflings by using Old English colloquialisms. He refers to Hobbits as "gaffers" and "gammers", "lads" and "lasses", "gentlehobbits", etc. As to what the Hobbits called themselves, I would imagine that they had their own unique words.

Since there are so many distinct humanoid races in Middle Earth, calling oneself "a man" when you are actually a Halfing would get rather confusing. It's probably for the best that the Good professor deftly avoids making any references to it.

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[mark12_30]

Birdie, I'm going to quote you on the game thread. You put in a nutshell what I always struggle with. ***Thanks.*** Got any more synomyms???

[Birdland]

Not on the tip of my tongue. Since LoTR is pretty much male oriented, the topic doesn't have to come up much. You say "dwarf" or "elf" or "hobbit" and pretty much 99% of the time you assume we're talkin' male dwarf, or elf, or hobbit.

Thank goodness Tolkien didn't resort to "hobbitess".

[zifnab]

The use of the word ‘man’, in this certain conversation, might be irrelevant. I try not to look at it as a euphemism with any form of a hidden meaning. I think the comment made from Gandalf, ‘His name is Peregrin, a very valiant man.’, is simply an answer to the guards question, ‘What is he? A dwarf out of the mountains in the North? We wish for no strangers in the land at this time, unless they be mighty men of arms in whose faith and help we can trust.’. And since, ‘obviously’ this man could not tell the difference of a ‘small boy’ from a ‘dwarf’, I don’t think the word man or hobbit would have had much of a negative effect. I believe the phrase, ‘A valiant man’ is meant to please the ears of the guard, and not to arouse suspicion or in this cause wonder ( as the word halfling did). I also believe that Gandalf does indeed believe that Pippin is valiant as this quote must assuredly proves , ‘And as for valour, that cannot be computed by stature. He has passed through more battles and perils than you have, Ingold,’ Thirdly Gandalf might have a premonition of Pippin’s future roles that will require much bravery, courage, love, compassion and of course valor. Even though Pippin rebuttals this comment. All in all, it might simply be seen as a compliment.


‘Many a doer of great deeds might say no more,’ said Ingold.

[mark12_30]

Er... Bird, what have you got against "Hobbitess"? And what would you prefer? In contrast to "Gentlehobbit", "Hobbit-lady" gets awkward after a while.

[Raefindel]

I think Tolkien used "Hobbit-lass" didn't he? Or have I just been on this site too long?

[Lyta_Underhill]

Thanks for those observations, zifnab! I think you are right about the euphemism part and that Gandalf has, for quite some time, taken an interest in the maturing Peregrin, who has indeed shown his growth beyond his stumbling beginnings in Rivendell and Moria. There is an almost fatherly feeling I get from Gandalf concerning Pippin, that, even after he scolds him in Moria and at Rivendell (over and over!), he is the one who intercedes for him with Elrond and also he takes up the watch for him in Moria when it is clear Pippin has learned his lesson. I think the incident with the palantir and the knowledge that Merry and Pippin have acted independently to bring about the awakening and wrath of Fangorn to great effect has finally clicked a switch in Pippin that Gandalf can see quite clearly and so now Gandalf knows beyond doubt that Pippin is a valiant man, even before he does his great deeds. Gandalf sees much that way, and does not give his compliments lightly. I apologize if my thoughts are a little muddy--I tend to ramble and get off the point when I talk about Pippin! Forgive me!

Cheers,
Lyta (serious Pippin-fancier!)