Orcs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nienna, sister of Feanturi · 12-08-2003, 01:28 PM

I was just wondering... are there female orcs? All the orcs mentioned in the books seem to be male and, well I can't imagine an orc with a skirt on, can you? (Not that all females have to wear skirts)And also- what happens to orcs when the die? I know they're made from mutilated Elves, so do they return to the Hall Of Mandos? Do they like Elves get re-born? And if so are they re-born as orcs or do they go back to being the Elf they would've been if Morgoth hadn't tampered with them? If anyone knows the answer, please say so.
Thanks,
Nienna
(New-ish girl at Barrow Downs)

ainur · 12-10-2003, 12:00 PM

I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned female orcs, but since orcs were just elves or humans tortured and corrupted by Morgoth, they must have reproduced in the usual way (forget what you saw in the movie) so there must have been female orcs somewhere. We just don't have any clues as to what their lives were like. Miserable in some way or other, no doubt.

By the way, I did a search, and found numerous threads on female orcs. Too many good ones to bother with links, but try it.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:10 PM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ]

Mattius · 12-10-2003, 02:15 PM

I suppose I can quote Gimli (Tolkien) on this one on the similar subject of Dwarf women-

Quote:

Its true you don't see many dwarf women and this has led to the incorrect view that there are no dwarf women and we just spring out of rocks!

Just as there are dwarf women, hobbit women nad ent women there must also be orc women.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-10-2003, 06:00 PM

Well, i think that the question of how they are reborn (i am assuming they ARE reborn) goes to this basic question:how does elven rebirth works? is where they are reborn based on how they acted in their previous life ( i doubt it), the nature of their orginal soul(if they have one, i think this is probable), or is it random?

If it is choice 1, they are reborn as orcs.
If it is choice 2, they are reborn as elves or orcs, depending on their nature before corruption.
If it is choice 3, it is, obviously, random.

My opinion, please argue with me! Argument is good!

Rilwen Gamgee · 12-10-2003, 10:19 PM

Welcome, Nienna! I pretty much agree with Mattius, but I always thought there really are Orc women, but like Dwarves, they all look alike. Also, on the concept of being re-born, I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think they would go to the Hall of Mandos, since they've been corrupted and mutilated.

Knight of Gondor · 12-10-2003, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Argument is good!

Is not! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Since Tolkien didn't go into specifics on it, we can only guess as to the nature of orc women, and even orc-reproduction.

We must assume that, if orcs have sexual reproduction, they must have a very miniscule gestation period since Saruman was able to generate his massive (though admittedly primarily computer generated... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) army so quickly.

I am of the mind that, even though they are corrupted from elves, they might actually engage in asexual reproduction, which is the biological term for one organism reproducing on its own, without procreation. Agree, disagree?

And please don't take us on a sidetrack with wild imaginations about orc-sex, that is NOT the point!! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-10-2003, 10:23 PM

I believe the term is parthenogenesis, when an organism produces a child on its own, without the aid of a mate of the opposite sex.

I agree, we do NOT need mental images of Orcish reproductive customs (I refuse to say the word even!). [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 12-11-2003, 05:57 AM

Why answer when it is clear the topic has to be searched for first?

dubleu · 12-13-2003, 11:42 PM

sharku not to insult you in any means ect. but is not a forum also meant to find opinions? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Knight of Gondor · 12-14-2003, 02:22 PM

Sharku, I don't think this topic was discussed very much in the past...but the search engine is down, anyway.

Eol Telemnar · 12-14-2003, 03:13 PM

I just went on to the search engine, and the last time this was discussed was:
September 12, 2002 (this date represents the very last post) that's how long ago it was.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-14-2003, 03:48 PM

Well, if the thread has grown too old, it is usually good to just read the thread and not post. If you want a new topic, have something new to say.
O, and i just realized something. There are almost no occasions of elvish rebirth that I can think of in the Sil, LotR, UT, or the part of HoME that I have read.
It appears to be something that JJRT thought about using, but never actually have anyone reborn.
Unless, of course, there are reborn elves where it is not mentioned that their soul has been in a body before.
However, I think all discussion of elvish rebirth is pure speculation. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eol Telemnar · 12-14-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Unless, of course, there are reborn elves where it is not mentioned that their soul has been in a body before.

that's probably the reason it does not say much about reborn elves. But, how does that work? Does the elf know that they have been in a different body or not? well, im getting off the subject, see ya

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 05:56 PM

I am changing my view to represent what I now believe:

1. Elvish rebirth never, or almost never, occurs.

2. Orcs are included in this by their being corrupted elves.

3. When orcs, and elves, die, they go to the halls of mandos to await the end of the world.

4. There are female orcs, just as there are female elves.

5. Orcs reproduce "in the manner of the children of illuvatar."

SUMMARY:
To sum it all up, basic orc characteristics are similar to those of elves, at least those concerned with their reproduction.

The first two deal with my views on rebirth.

Knight of Gondor · 12-15-2003, 09:51 PM

Quote:

However, I think all discussion of elvish rebirth is pure speculation.

Actually, I read the concept of rebirth in either the Sil, or The Book of Lost Tales. I don't like the idea, because it is too similar to the New Age/Eastern religion and mystical ideas of reincarnation. But the book stated that Elves are reborn in their children somehow.

I do agree that each reproduces after its own kind, though, it sounds reasonable to me.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-16-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Actually, I read the concept of rebirth in either the Sil, or The Book of Lost Tales. I don't like the idea, because it is too similar to the New Age/Eastern religion and mystical ideas of reincarnation. But the book stated that Elves are reborn in their children somehow.

Yes, I know this, but:
I do not see a single example of elvish rebirth in any of the books I have read. It says that it exists, but never states a specific example. Because of this, I have3 come to believe that it was an idea that he toyed with but then discarded. I even read something saying he never used it in HoME somewhere.

pandora · 12-16-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I do not see a single example of elvish rebirth in any of the books I have read.

Glorfindel in LotR and Miriel in Sil spring to mind.

Gandalf is an (non-elvish) example of a spirit being given a new body after the death of the old one too.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-16-2003, 11:42 AM

Hm... I do not remember either of those. I should go read the books again. Forgive my most grievous error. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Well, actually, I wont believe you until i see it in the books.

pandora · 12-16-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Hm... I do not remember either of those.

Glorfindel killed/was killed by a balrog during the evacuation from Gondolin in Sil and was also the elf that met the Frodo et al just before the flight to the ford.

Miriel was Feanor's mother who "gsve up the ghost" after giving birth and eventually came back from the Halls of Mandos into her own body again (which was preserved in the decay-free land of the Valor).

Nienna, sister of Feanturi · 12-20-2003, 10:16 AM

Thanks everyone for replying. I probabaly should have searched this before writing the question *blush*. I didn't actually know that you could search topics.. but thanks for telling me (just goes to show you should always do your research)
I agree with Finwe- orc *ahem* reproduction methods are not a pleasant thought.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-20-2003, 10:41 AM

OK, then, Miriel I now admit was reborn (although I question the idea that it was not one-of-a-kind).
However, I am just wondering, are you all sure that it was the same person? I was just thinking, if there was elven rebirth, they would not have the same name, and also, tolkien seems to reuse many Man names, so why not elves?
(If these are stupid questions, just tell me to read the books again)

Olorin_TLA · 12-21-2003, 10:49 AM

Elves aren't "reborn" as children, Tolkien decided, as that would be slightly twisted both for the kid and its "parents" - instead, they return in the form they bore in life once more.

But rebirth requires the permission of the Valar, and Orks would never, ever get that, as they are unrepentantly (practically) evil. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-22-2003, 11:46 PM

I think JRRT put that whole reincarnation of elves thing to tie it into some of the mythology which is incorporated into his books.
I'm not sure on it but I think that in Norse mythology the Elves are reborn into their youth so there's always the same number of elves till Ragnarok.
Mayhaps this is where he gotteth this and put it into his awesome books which we all read, enjoy, love and of course chat about.
Thanx all, talk l8r. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

12-23-2003, 03:31 PM

Orcs are mutated elves right? Well even if there were orc women and they do reproduce the child orcs might turn out as elves, wouldnt they???

12-08-2003, 01:28 PM	#1
Nienna, sister of Feanturi Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: U.K Posts: 13	Orcs I was just wondering... are there female orcs? All the orcs mentioned in the books seem to be male and, well I can't imagine an orc with a skirt on, can you? (Not that all females have to wear skirts)And also- what happens to orcs when the die? I know they're made from mutilated Elves, so do they return to the Hall Of Mandos? Do they like Elves get re-born? And if so are they re-born as orcs or do they go back to being the Elf they would've been if Morgoth hadn't tampered with them? If anyone knows the answer, please say so. Thanks, Nienna (New-ish girl at Barrow Downs) __________________ 'So great was her sorrow, as the music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before the end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began.'

12-10-2003, 12:00 PM	#2
ainur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis MN Posts: 72	I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned female orcs, but since orcs were just elves or humans tortured and corrupted by Morgoth, they must have reproduced in the usual way (forget what you saw in the movie) so there must have been female orcs somewhere. We just don't have any clues as to what their lives were like. Miserable in some way or other, no doubt. By the way, I did a search, and found numerous threads on female orcs. Too many good ones to bother with links, but try it. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:10 PM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ] __________________ Yet all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

12-10-2003, 06:00 PM	#4
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Well, i think that the question of how they are reborn (i am assuming they ARE reborn) goes to this basic question:how does elven rebirth works? is where they are reborn based on how they acted in their previous life ( i doubt it), the nature of their orginal soul(if they have one, i think this is probable), or is it random? If it is choice 1, they are reborn as orcs. If it is choice 2, they are reborn as elves or orcs, depending on their nature before corruption. If it is choice 3, it is, obviously, random. My opinion, please argue with me! Argument is good! __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-10-2003, 10:23 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I believe the term is parthenogenesis, when an organism produces a child on its own, without the aid of a mate of the opposite sex. I agree, we do NOT need mental images of Orcish reproductive customs (I refuse to say the word even!). [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-13-2003, 11:42 PM	#9
dubleu Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the land we stole from the indians Posts: 13	sharku not to insult you in any means ect. but is not a forum also meant to find opinions? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ live long die young and tell me how you did both.

12-10-2003, 10:19 PM	#5
Rilwen Gamgee Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At home. Posts: 135	Welcome, Nienna! I pretty much agree with Mattius, but I always thought there really are Orc women, but like Dwarves, they all look alike. Also, on the concept of being re-born, I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think they would go to the Hall of Mandos, since they've been corrupted and mutilated.

12-11-2003, 05:57 AM	#8
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Why answer when it is clear the topic has to be searched for first?

12-14-2003, 02:22 PM	#10
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Sharku, I don't think this topic was discussed very much in the past...but the search engine is down, anyway. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

12-14-2003, 03:13 PM	#11
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	I just went on to the search engine, and the last time this was discussed was: September 12, 2002 (this date represents the very last post) that's how long ago it was. __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 03:48 PM	#12
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Well, if the thread has grown too old, it is usually good to just read the thread and not post. If you want a new topic, have something new to say. O, and i just realized something. There are almost no occasions of elvish rebirth that I can think of in the Sil, LotR, UT, or the part of HoME that I have read. It appears to be something that JJRT thought about using, but never actually have anyone reborn. Unless, of course, there are reborn elves where it is not mentioned that their soul has been in a body before. However, I think all discussion of elvish rebirth is pure speculation. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-15-2003, 05:56 PM	#14
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	I am changing my view to represent what I now believe: 1. Elvish rebirth never, or almost never, occurs. 2. Orcs are included in this by their being corrupted elves. 3. When orcs, and elves, die, they go to the halls of mandos to await the end of the world. 4. There are female orcs, just as there are female elves. 5. Orcs reproduce "in the manner of the children of illuvatar." SUMMARY: To sum it all up, basic orc characteristics are similar to those of elves, at least those concerned with their reproduction. The first two deal with my views on rebirth. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-16-2003, 11:42 AM	#18
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Hm... I do not remember either of those. I should go read the books again. Forgive my most grievous error. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Well, actually, I wont believe you until i see it in the books. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-20-2003, 10:16 AM	#20
Nienna, sister of Feanturi Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: U.K Posts: 13	Thanks everyone for replying. I probabaly should have searched this before writing the question blush. I didn't actually know that you could search topics.. but thanks for telling me (just goes to show you should always do your research) I agree with Finwe- orc ahem reproduction methods are not a pleasant thought. __________________ 'So great was her sorrow, as the music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before the end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began.'

12-20-2003, 10:41 AM	#21
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	OK, then, Miriel I now admit was reborn (although I question the idea that it was not one-of-a-kind). However, I am just wondering, are you all sure that it was the same person? I was just thinking, if there was elven rebirth, they would not have the same name, and also, tolkien seems to reuse many Man names, so why not elves? (If these are stupid questions, just tell me to read the books again) __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-21-2003, 10:49 AM	#22
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Elves aren't "reborn" as children, Tolkien decided, as that would be slightly twisted both for the kid and its "parents" - instead, they return in the form they bore in life once more. But rebirth requires the permission of the Valar, and Orks would never, ever get that, as they are unrepentantly (practically) evil. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-22-2003, 11:46 PM	#23
Tárafëaien Guest Posts: n/a	I think JRRT put that whole reincarnation of elves thing to tie it into some of the mythology which is incorporated into his books. I'm not sure on it but I think that in Norse mythology the Elves are reborn into their youth so there's always the same number of elves till Ragnarok. Mayhaps this is where he gotteth this and put it into his awesome books which we all read, enjoy, love and of course chat about. Thanx all, talk l8r. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

12-23-2003, 03:31 PM	#24
Wilwarin Bluemoon Guest Posts: n/a	Orcs are mutated elves right? Well even if there were orc women and they do reproduce the child orcs might turn out as elves, wouldnt they???