A question for those who are interested... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Feared Half-Elf · 11-28-2003, 10:13 AM

Right. I know that elves are immortal, obviously, but can be killed by fire and steel, but can they drown? If they can't, does that mean that they can breathe underwater and swim around like fish in their free time? This suddenly occured to me whilst watching TTT. Frodo had just fallen into the water in the Dead Marshes.

Anyone got any ideas?

Meela · 11-28-2003, 12:12 PM

It would make sense that they can drown, if they can be killed in other 'ordinary' ways, such as sword and fire. I don't think they suddenly develop gills or fins...

Failivrin · 11-28-2003, 03:25 PM

i don't think that Elves would ever fall in water but i would only be able to assume that they cannot die from drowning as it doesn't come under combat or death of a broken heart.

Ainaserkewen · 11-28-2003, 04:09 PM

I don't know there Failivrin, I think they'd be able to drown. They wouldn't normally fall into water, but they could get thrown in. I think they have (more or less) mortal bodies...but they're just immortal and their immune systems kicks butt!

Eowyn_Wildfire · 11-28-2003, 04:47 PM

mabye they could last under water for long amounts of time, but I think they would die eventually

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-28-2003, 06:48 PM

Amroth, King of Lorien, jumped in the water to swim to shore in search of his love, Nimrodel. From History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales:

Quote:

Crying aloud and in despair Nimrodel! he leapt into the sea and swam towards the fading shore. The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his hair like a spark of gold. No eyes of Elves or Men ever saw him again in Middle-earth.

So, unless he swam all the way to the Undying Lands (unlikely given his intended destination), it would seem that he drowned and his spirit went to the Halls of Mandos.

Edit: This should be in Books, unless its been asked already.

[ 7:48 PM November 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Edited again: ... or Novices and Newcomers.
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ 9:25 PM December 01, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

***Sharkû*** · 11-28-2003, 07:16 PM

<font size="-2">"and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters." (HoME II, iii)

Elves need to sustain their bodies by eating, drinking and breathing just like Men.

[ 8:20 PM November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Knight of Gondor · 11-28-2003, 09:21 PM

I would guess they, like all other things they excell at, would have greater capacity for holding their breath.

Didn't Orlando Bloom almost drown in the Pirates movie? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (Just an off-topic little note...please no one begin discussing that movie, as it does not relate to Tolkien)

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 11-29-2003, 04:47 AM

(Did he?! Aww, sweet!!! Goes to show elves can drown then... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And have you seen the blooper reel which shows how many times he dropped the sword when he was tossing it at the beginning?! Eowyn_Wildfire, I LOVE your avvie!!!)

I would have thought that they could drown, though they hadn't drowned in the Dead Marshes- that was just the marshes creeping up on and overwhelming the battle fields or something. Just because their spirits were bound to Arda until its end doesn't mean their bodies could be destroyed, although of course it was harder to destroy an elven body than a human one.

Failivrin · 11-29-2003, 03:12 PM

let me summarise my new adapted 'Elves/drowning' theory: Elves cannot 'drown' i nthe sense that they fall into water and die of loss of breath. however, they cannot survive with out food/ water etc so eventually underwater they will die.

i would not count that explanation as drowning, rather starvation. whoopsy, that isn't combat or a broken heart either...so maybe they can drown!

Guinevere · 11-29-2003, 04:02 PM

I think is is pretty clear that elves can drown, same as they can starve or die from cold.
Here is another example to prove this:
Voronwë, who guided Tuor to Gondolin, had been sailing in the last ship that Turgon had sent into the West. When the returning ship foundered in a storm,
"Ulmo took him up, alone of all its mariners, and cast him upon the land near Vinyamar."
So all the other elves on the ship must have drowned.

[ 5:05 PM November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

Feared Half-Elf · 11-30-2003, 06:24 AM

Wow, I never thought that so many people would have ideas about this... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 11-30-2003, 07:39 AM

And I never thought there could be so wrong ideas about this. Elves surviving without oxygen, give me a break. What you imagine or desire to be doesn't have anything to do with what was the case in the books.
The Dead Marshes are a totally different matter anyway. They never drowned, and the remains aren't corpses either (didn't you listen to Gollum?!).

Earendilyon · 11-30-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

So all the other elves on the ship must have drowned.

Ofcourse not! They died of starvation while walking on the bottom of the sea, searching for Valinor! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [/sarcasm]

Feared Half-Elf · 12-01-2003, 01:15 PM

I know that the people in the Dead Marshes didn't drown, they died from a great battle, I was just wondering. I thought I'd see what other people thought on this matter, and what other opinions people had.

The Dead Mashes just jolted my mind into thinking about it, continuing with the water theme...

Lady Snickerdoodle · 12-05-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Didn't Orlando Bloom almost drown in the Pirates movie? (Just an off-topic little note...please no one begin discussing that movie, as it does not relate to Tolkien)

(keehee) I know! That scene made me nearly have a nervous breakdown!!!

The Perky Ent · 12-06-2003, 11:34 PM

Elfes and probably also die of things like falling from a tower or junk like that. I think the whole fire, steel, or a broken heart thing is a little bit far-fetched. I wonder if Elves could be electricuted?...

Eggy · 12-07-2003, 07:38 AM

It was my understanding that the elves are weak to many of the mortal frailties that people are, except the likes of sickness of the body, and that they simply once grown to full stature never age in body, and are subjuct to many of the hurts of this world that we are.
YES THEY CAN DROWN..he he he

Feared Half-Elf · 12-08-2003, 02:21 PM

To be quite honest, I thought that they could drown too. I was wondering what other people would have to say.

Everdawn · 12-09-2003, 03:19 AM

Quote:

So, unless he swam all the way to the Undying Lands

Which would make an interesting chapter in some undiscovered Tolkien book. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

My understanding is that the elves are immortal becuase they dont age like humans or get disease. So, if they stayed away from war and were healthy, there is no reason they could die i suppose.

dubleu · 12-14-2003, 03:36 PM

(in agreeance with everdawn) i believe elves are only immortal in the sence that they cannot die of disease and age being a disease they cannot die of it. However i do not understand how elves could die of poison [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Eol Telemnar · 12-14-2003, 03:45 PM

I agree with dubleu [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-14-2003, 04:50 PM

Well, there is now a separate topic on elves and poison.
However, i say that there are only two ways elves cannot die that humans can die- old age and disease. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

11-28-2003, 10:13 AM	#1
Feared Half-Elf Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 213	A question for those who are interested... Right. I know that elves are immortal, obviously, but can be killed by fire and steel, but can they drown? If they can't, does that mean that they can breathe underwater and swim around like fish in their free time? This suddenly occured to me whilst watching TTT. Frodo had just fallen into the water in the Dead Marshes. Anyone got any ideas? __________________ "You will find the Holy Grail in Castle Aaaaaaahhhhhh leans sideways" Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

11-28-2003, 12:12 PM	#2
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	It would make sense that they can drown, if they can be killed in other 'ordinary' ways, such as sword and fire. I don't think they suddenly develop gills or fins... __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

11-28-2003, 03:25 PM	#3
Failivrin Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: England Posts: 201	i don't think that Elves would ever fall in water but i would only be able to assume that they cannot die from drowning as it doesn't come under combat or death of a broken heart. __________________ no one in particular

11-28-2003, 04:09 PM	#4
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	I don't know there Failivrin, I think they'd be able to drown. They wouldn't normally fall into water, but they could get thrown in. I think they have (more or less) mortal bodies...but they're just immortal and their immune systems kicks butt! __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

11-28-2003, 04:47 PM	#5
Eowyn_Wildfire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: on my horse (I wish) Posts: 47	mabye they could last under water for long amounts of time, but I think they would die eventually __________________ I see in your eyes, the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of Men fails. And we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship but it is not this day. This day....we fight

11-28-2003, 07:16 PM	#7
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	<font size="-2">"and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters." (HoME II, iii) Elves need to sustain their bodies by eating, drinking and breathing just like Men. [ 8:20 PM November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

11-28-2003, 09:21 PM	#8
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	I would guess they, like all other things they excell at, would have greater capacity for holding their breath. Didn't Orlando Bloom almost drown in the Pirates movie? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (Just an off-topic little note...please no one begin discussing that movie, as it does not relate to Tolkien) __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-29-2003, 04:47 AM	#9
Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England Posts: 364	(Did he?! Aww, sweet!!! Goes to show elves can drown then... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And have you seen the blooper reel which shows how many times he dropped the sword when he was tossing it at the beginning?! Eowyn_Wildfire, I LOVE your avvie!!!) I would have thought that they could drown, though they hadn't drowned in the Dead Marshes- that was just the marshes creeping up on and overwhelming the battle fields or something. Just because their spirits were bound to Arda until its end doesn't mean their bodies could be destroyed, although of course it was harder to destroy an elven body than a human one. __________________ '"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."'

11-29-2003, 03:12 PM	#10
Failivrin Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: England Posts: 201	let me summarise my new adapted 'Elves/drowning' theory: Elves cannot 'drown' i nthe sense that they fall into water and die of loss of breath. however, they cannot survive with out food/ water etc so eventually underwater they will die. i would not count that explanation as drowning, rather starvation. whoopsy, that isn't combat or a broken heart either...so maybe they can drown! __________________ no one in particular

11-29-2003, 04:02 PM	#11
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	I think is is pretty clear that elves can drown, same as they can starve or die from cold. Here is another example to prove this: Voronwë, who guided Tuor to Gondolin, had been sailing in the last ship that Turgon had sent into the West. When the returning ship foundered in a storm, "Ulmo took him up, alone of all its mariners, and cast him upon the land near Vinyamar." So all the other elves on the ship must have drowned. [ 5:05 PM November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ] __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

11-30-2003, 06:24 AM	#12
Feared Half-Elf Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 213	Wow, I never thought that so many people would have ideas about this... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "You will find the Holy Grail in Castle Aaaaaaahhhhhh leans sideways" Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

11-30-2003, 07:39 AM	#13
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	And I never thought there could be so wrong ideas about this. Elves surviving without oxygen, give me a break. What you imagine or desire to be doesn't have anything to do with what was the case in the books. The Dead Marshes are a totally different matter anyway. They never drowned, and the remains aren't corpses either (didn't you listen to Gollum?!).

12-01-2003, 01:15 PM	#15
Feared Half-Elf Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 213	I know that the people in the Dead Marshes didn't drown, they died from a great battle, I was just wondering. I thought I'd see what other people thought on this matter, and what other opinions people had. The Dead Mashes just jolted my mind into thinking about it, continuing with the water theme... __________________ "You will find the Holy Grail in Castle Aaaaaaahhhhhh leans sideways" Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

12-06-2003, 11:34 PM	#17
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Elfes and probably also die of things like falling from a tower or junk like that. I think the whole fire, steel, or a broken heart thing is a little bit far-fetched. I wonder if Elves could be electricuted?... __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

12-07-2003, 07:38 AM	#18
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	It was my understanding that the elves are weak to many of the mortal frailties that people are, except the likes of sickness of the body, and that they simply once grown to full stature never age in body, and are subjuct to many of the hurts of this world that we are. YES THEY CAN DROWN..he he he __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

12-08-2003, 02:21 PM	#19
Feared Half-Elf Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 213	To be quite honest, I thought that they could drown too. I was wondering what other people would have to say. __________________ "You will find the Holy Grail in Castle Aaaaaaahhhhhh leans sideways" Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

12-14-2003, 03:36 PM	#21
dubleu Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the land we stole from the indians Posts: 13	(in agreeance with everdawn) i believe elves are only immortal in the sence that they cannot die of disease and age being a disease they cannot die of it. However i do not understand how elves could die of poison [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ live long die young and tell me how you did both.

12-14-2003, 03:45 PM	#22
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	I agree with dubleu [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 04:50 PM	#23
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Well, there is now a separate topic on elves and poison. However, i say that there are only two ways elves cannot die that humans can die- old age and disease. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!