Moria and Mozes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Helkahothion · 04-18-2003, 10:24 AM

I thought that Tolkien never had his religion uttered in his books. But one one day in class, someone tolled a story of ehm, I believe Mozes, who goes up a mountain to sacrefise his son. The name of the mountain is: Moria. Do you think Tolkien named it on purpose or by accident? If on purpose, are there other things he named from the bible?
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Morwen Tindomerel · 04-18-2003, 10:45 AM

*Moses* went up Mount Sinai to recieve the Ten Commandments. You're thinking of the the story of Abraham who was ordered by God to take his son Isaac into the land of Moriah and sacrifice him to God, (needless to say it was just a test of Abraham's faith - no sacrifice took place). According to my Bible concordance 'Moriah' was also the name of the mount on which Solomon built his temple.

The biblical 'Moriah' is pronounced Mor-eye-ah and Tolkien's 'Moria' Mor-ee-ah, but it's certainly possible that the one inspired the other perhaps subconsciously.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 04-18-2003, 11:21 AM

Thanks for clearing up the Biblical side of this, Morwen. Here's what Tolkien had to say:

Quote:

As for the 'land of Morīah' (note stress): that has no connexion (even externally) whatsoever. Internally there is no conceivable connexion between the mining of Dwarves and the story of Abraham. I utterly repudiate any such significances and symbolisms. My mind does not work that way; and (in my view) you are led astray by a purely fortuitous similarity, more obvious in spelling than speech, which cannot be justified from the real intended significance of my story.

(from letter #297 (draught) to 'Mr. Rang').

Tolkien also gives the derivation of the name 'Moria': it is Sindarin, from mor 'black' (as in 'Mordor', 'Morgoth', 'Morannon', etc), iâ 'void, abyss', hence 'Black Chasm'. His "note stress" is meant to indicate that his word and that from the Bible are pronounced differently, as detailed above. Given this evidence, I think that the similarity in written form can be considered a coincidence.

[EDIT: I cross-posted with Morwen, so I've removed my own explanations of the Genesis story and the pronunciation of the two names]

[ April 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

Helkahothion · 04-18-2003, 11:52 AM

I'm seriously impressed.

Where did you get this info?
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The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 04-18-2003, 12:07 PM

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, ed. Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien (HarperCollins, 1995)

And, of course, the King James Bible [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Helkahothion · 04-18-2003, 12:10 PM

So technigly, Tolkien used the name by accident. Just one of his translations. How long did it take for him to make al those languages anyway? Did he even speak them, or just wrote the grammer?
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the guy who be short · 04-19-2003, 10:59 AM

i dont think he spoke them, as there would be nobody to understand him!, but i may be wrong. but he certainly wrote in tengwar, it is in HoME. but im sure that when you translate it it is english, not and form of elvish. he did build up his languages immensely, but they are still quite insufficient for proper converse.

04-18-2003, 10:24 AM	#1
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	Moria and Mozes I thought that Tolkien never had his religion uttered in his books. But one one day in class, someone tolled a story of ehm, I believe Mozes, who goes up a mountain to sacrefise his son. The name of the mountain is: Moria. Do you think Tolkien named it on purpose or by accident? If on purpose, are there other things he named from the bible? ________ Vapir no2 vaporizer Last edited by Helkahothion; 03-07-2011 at 01:57 AM.

04-18-2003, 11:52 AM	#4
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	I'm seriously impressed. Where did you get this info? ________ Buy Silver Surfer Last edited by Helkahothion; 03-07-2011 at 01:57 AM.

04-18-2003, 12:07 PM	#5
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, ed. Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien (HarperCollins, 1995) And, of course, the King James Bible [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

04-18-2003, 12:10 PM	#6
Helkahothion Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The inside of Legolas' lungs Posts: 1,005	So technigly, Tolkien used the name by accident. Just one of his translations. How long did it take for him to make al those languages anyway? Did he even speak them, or just wrote the grammer? ________ VOLCANO VAPORIZER REVIEWS Last edited by Helkahothion; 03-07-2011 at 01:57 AM.

04-18-2003, 10:45 AM	#2
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	Moses went up Mount Sinai to recieve the Ten Commandments. You're thinking of the the story of Abraham who was ordered by God to take his son Isaac into the land of Moriah and sacrifice him to God, (needless to say it was just a test of Abraham's faith - no sacrifice took place). According to my Bible concordance 'Moriah' was also the name of the mount on which Solomon built his temple. The biblical 'Moriah' is pronounced Mor-eye-ah and Tolkien's 'Moria' Mor-ee-ah, but it's certainly possible that the one inspired the other perhaps subconsciously.

04-19-2003, 10:59 AM	#7
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	i dont think he spoke them, as there would be nobody to understand him!, but i may be wrong. but he certainly wrote in tengwar, it is in HoME. but im sure that when you translate it it is english, not and form of elvish. he did build up his languages immensely, but they are still quite insufficient for proper converse.