King of the Elves

[The Evenstar]

Galadriel is the Queen of the Elves but then her husband, Celeborn has to be the King of the Elves. Am I right?

Kind regards and please reply.

[Hanna_Gamgee]

I believe that Galadriel is Queen of Lorien and a Noldorin princess. Celeborn was king of East Lorien and a former prince of Doriath. Im not sure if they were King and Queen of the elves.

[Meela]

Do you mean all elves or one section of them? Because Thranduil was also an elven king, right? I thought Galadriel was just queen of Lothlorien. And Celeborn would have been king.

[Chancellen the True]

Ingwe, who resides on Taniquentil, is held as The High King of all the elves. He is of the Vaynar.

Galadriel is only half Noldor, her mother was Earwen of the Teleri. That is why she was in Doriath in the first place, to visit her kin.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

If memory serves me right, Galadriel is never actually called a Queen in the books, and neither is Celeborn ever referred to as King. There are also references to that in the Letters, which I will try to look up later.

[lore_master]

technicly Galladriel would only be quenn of lorien or possibly the noldori. elrond i think would rightfully have the tittle of high king of all the elves, beening he was the steward of Gil -Galad, and distintly realated to him (closer than galadriel)

[Legolas]

Celeborn and Galadriel are only 'Lord' and 'Lady' of Lorien.

In Letter No. 210, Tolkien made corrections on the film treatment of The Lord of the Rings in the 1950s:

'A splendid sight. It is the home of Galadriel. . . an Elvenqueen.' (She is not in fact one.)

Also, in The Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien refers to her in one instance as 'like a queen' indicating she is not actually one.

Frodo took the phial, and for a moment as it shone between them, he saw her again standing like a queen, great and beautiful, but no longer terrible. He bowed, but found no words to say.

Gimli refers to her as a queen, but he either misunderstood her position or is using it to refer to his reverence for her:

'And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.'

[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[secretfire]

In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen...

Perhaps the OneRing knew Galadriel's soft spot: that in her heart she harbored a small desire to be queen.

By the way, how much older is Galadriel over Celeborn? Legolas over Gimli? Thanks.

[Legolas]

Perhaps the OneRing knew Galadriel's soft spot: that in her heart she harbored a small desire to be queen.

Definitely. It was part of the Ring's power to deceive others with thoughts of using it.

Letter No. 246:

In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. [...] But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.

Celeborn's birthdate is unknown, but they are probably about the same age. They were of the same generation.

Finwe > Finarfin > Galadriel
Elmo > Galadhon > Celeborn

Legolas' birthdate is not given, but it's still apparent that he is much, much older than Gimli and Aragorn. I'd say is at least nearing 1,000:

'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

As far as age goes, Gimli and Aragorn are 'children' compared to Legolas. At the time, Aragorn was almost 90; Gimli was about 140.

[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Mornie Alantie]

Gilgalad was the last literal king of the Elves. After him the was lord Cirdan of Mithlond, lord Elrond of Imladris(Rivendell), lord Celeborn and Lady Galadriel of Lothlorien, And king Thranduil of Mirkwood, yet he was only king over mirkwood and not all the elves. Also Galadriel was part Vanya, just so you know. Finwe(Noldor) second wife (i think her name was) Indis (Vanyar) had two sons, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Finarfin married Earwen (Teleri) and Galadriel was their only daughter.

It tells in unfinished tales of how Galadriel always desired to rule a kingdom, also she says, "I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this" when offered the ring. So the ring hit her in her greatest soft spot.

[Voralphion]

elrond i think
would rightfully have the title of high king of all the elves, beening he was the steward
of Gil -Galad,

True, also he was the eldest descendent of Fingolfin, high king of the Noldor, (Fingolfin-->Turgon-->Idril-->Earendil-->Elrond). Since Gil Galad had no children, then the kingship should've gone to Elrond, although he didn't take it up.

In UT it says that Celeborn and Galadriel weren't king and queen of Lorien because the elves of Lorien didn't want to take a new king after their original king, Amroth died.

[Chancellen the True]

Gil Galad and his relatives before and after were only kings of the Noldor. They had no power over Thingol's people or the Green Elves of Ossiriland. After the fall of Doriath, there had to be great resentment from the remnant of the peoples of Doriath towards the Noldor added to the suspision and doubt of the Noldor's motives that allready existed. I'm sure in the second age during Gil Galad's reign that some, if not most of the Teleri took him as king, but not all.

I hate to have to repeat myself, but here goes: "but Ingwe was ever held the High King of all the Elves" p. 65 The Silmarillion

Galadriel was the queen of Eregion but only the Lady of Lorien.

[Noldorin King]

I don't think Celeborn was ever a king but there's no question of Galadriel being a queen...All the high people of the Noldor now perished in Middle Earth and had Galadriel desired it, she could claim the title of HIghKing of all the Noldor in MiddleEarth or Queen for the matter...

[Legolas]

Really, no, she couldn't have. She was far removed from the title; her claim would've gone as far back as possible to being the granddaughter of Finwe himself. Finarfin's house never held the title. This gives her virtually no claim - Elrond was the grandson of Turgon and great grandson of Fingolfin. Additionally, there were very few Noldor left in Middle-earth and those left dwelt in Lindon or Imladris, not Lorien.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Finarfin's house never held the title.

Didn't Finarfin himself hold the title (King of the Noldor) in the West (Valinor), once the host of Fëanor and Fingolfin were gone to ME? Or was he simply "ruler" of the Noldor who stayed behind and did not go to ME?

Cheers,
Lyta

[The Elusive Spirit]

No, I think is says some where that Finarfin is the High King of all Noldor. In ME it should be Elrond. I think that's how it works, correct me if I'm wrong.

[the phantom]

Didn't Finarfin himself hold the title (King of the Noldor) in the West (Valinor), once the host of Fëanor and Fingolfin were gone to ME? Or was he simply "ruler" of the Noldor who stayed behind and did not go to ME?

This is what the Silmarillion says-

...and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.

But the host of the Valar prepared for battle...and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin...

It seems he's not a king, but rather a leader and a ruler.

Gil Galad and his relatives before and after were only kings of the Noldor. They had no power over Thingol's people or the Green Elves of Ossiriland.

Gil didn't have power over them, but Elrond does. He descends directly from Thingol and Melian (Thingol->Luthien->Dior->Elwing->Elrond).

So it seems he could claim the kingship of both the Noldor and Teleri (he just never bothered too).

[Finwe]

Elrond didn't really have much of a choice, because he would have been a King only in name. In Gil-galad's time, many Elves still remained in Middle-earth, but after the Last Alliance, and in the Second and Third Ages, it seemed like a mass migration of the Elves took place, and most of them left for Valinor. If Elrond had taken up the Kingship, then he wouldn't really have had a people to rule.

Accepting Elrond's right to rule over Galadriel's is a bit of a non sequitur. His High Noldorin blood came from his grandmother, Idril, not from Tuor (obviously). If Tuor had been the Elf, and the Heir of Turgon, then Elrond would have had a rightful claim to the throne. But since thrones and inheritance were reckoned through the father's line, Elrond wouldn't have been able to inherit the throne. If they tried, then Galadriel, who was the daughter of Finarfin, the brother of Fingolfin, would have had the same right to rule. In fact, she would have had a stronger claim because she was far older than Elrond, and had much more experience than him in matters of ruling.

[Legolas]

(as with this entire thread, this is supposing that there is some call for a Middle-earth ruler over the Noldor, which there clearly was not in the story)

"Age" and "experience...in matters of ruling" matter very little here. When Gil-galad fell, Elrond was nowhere near being a child (which is the only instance we see the throne being passed by the rightful heir, temporarily even, in Gil-galad's case). Elrond was from the line of High Kings while Galadriel was not - Elrond was the grandson of Idril, but Turgon had no son, leaving Elrond still in line to receive the throne after the fall of Gil-galad. Even if he did have a son and the son had no heirs, Elrond would still be in line. Galadriel is truly out of the question, especially while a full-grown male descendent of Fingfolin is still alive.

[Noldorin King]

Galadriel remains the only leader who had the right to claim The High King title of all the Noldor in Middle Earth. it was made clear in one Middle earth dictionary written not by David Day (Go look at the Definition of the High King of the Noldor). the title is already shortened, it's full term is Highking of all the Noldor in EXILE. Earendil Elrond's sire only had 1/2 or 1/4(technically) noldorin blood in him and wasn't even considered one. So how could Elrond be the HighKing of the Noldor when his father was not even an immortal child? those who left Aman willingly no longer had errand in the West (and this includes Idril),so was said of the fate of Earendil by the Valar. Furthemore, the only High King of all the Noldor was Finwe, those who ruled Middle earth (Fingolfin and his sons)had no right over those who remained in Aman, only Finarfin, Galadriel's father, had...

[Noldorin King]

Don't take me wrong...it doesn't matter if Finarfin, father of the Lady, was rightfully king of all the noldor, what i'm stressing here is Galadriel, being the only remaining leader of the exiled Noldor in M.E. had the only right over her people that TARRIED there even after the fall of Melko. It is not by her Sindarin ascent that she could be queen of all elves but rather with her relation with Finwe as queen of all the Noldor in M.E. that's all, i already said why Elrond couldn't be King of the Noldor. just because he descended from Fingolfin doen't mean he could be one. take note that the title is passed to the brother of the former King; it rather went like this: Feanor>Fingolfin(not to Maedhros, Feanor's son)> Fingon(since Finarfin was in Aman)>Turgon(not to Gil Galad, Fingon's son)>Gil Galad> the Lady of Lorien or the Lord of Imladris? the lady, period. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Technically, I don't count because I was stuck in Mandos' Halls (See what that settlement did to me! And what these alimony payments are doing to me!), still am, and will continue to be until the End of Days.

[the phantom]

So how could Elrond be the HighKing of the Noldor when his father was not even an immortal child?

Actually, his father's fate is joined with elvenkind, so he is an "immortal", just as much as Elrond is.

Earendil Elrond's sire only had 1/2 or 1/4(technically) noldorin blood in him and wasn't even considered one.

It really doesn't matter if someone's blood is 1/2 or 1/100 Noldorin. If they have the title, they have the title. If you recall, Fingolfin himself was only 1/2 Noldorin.

take note that the title is passed to the brother of the former King; it rather went like this: Feanor>Fingolfin(not to Maedhros, Feanor's son)

Remember, that was a point of contention. Maehdros (as a result of his remorse) waived his claim to the kingship and gave it to Fingolfin, an act that Maedhros's brothers did not agree with. Then after that the kingship stayed in Fingolfin's house (where Elrond comes from).

Galadriel is truly out of the question, especially while a full-grown male descendent of Fingfolin is still alive.

Exactly. As Yoda would say, "Listen to Legolas, you must."