The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2002, 11:42 AM   #1
Merri
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Shire
Posts: 221
Merri has just left Hobbiton.
Question Interpretation of The Gray Havens

What's your interpretation of The Gray Havens? I think it's Tolkien's take on death and the after life . . . but then part of me insists that Frodo never really dies.
__________________
Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon.
-Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.
Merri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 12:56 PM   #2
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

I picture the Grey Havens as a port and not much more.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 02:46 PM   #3
Arwen Imladris
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Arwen Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
Arwen Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I always thought that Frodo kind of died, and he does, no one in ME ever sees him again. He was going there until all of his hurts were healed. From the sounds of that he is going somewere else after he is better. Only elves are imortal, and I think that it doesn't change no matter where they live, only elves will live forever. Does anyone else have more proof?

Oh, one more thing, Frodo DOES stilll live, in the books, in our memories and the memories of his friends.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Arwen Imladris ]
__________________
"Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."
Arwen Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 03:00 PM   #4
Davin
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 166
Davin has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I think of it as Tolkiens own heaven.

As for Frodo, I kinda thought he never died either, but I don't really have anything to back that idea up.
__________________
So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

»»The Telmena««
Davin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 03:53 PM   #5
Gwindor
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 30
Gwindor has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gwindor
Sting

All right, lets get some things straight. The Grey Havens is the point where elves go to sail into the west to return to Valinor. Only elves have the right to pass into the west, all other races will get lost and never make it. However, an exception was made for the ring bearers of the one ring. so that is why Frodo and Bilbo went to the Grey Havens to sail into the west. They were completely alive when they went there. Did going to the undying lands make them Immortal? no. they lived the rest of their lives in Valinor and died there as well.

Gwindor [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
5/4 of people have problems with fractions.
Gwindor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 04:25 PM   #6
BeeBombadil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 32
BeeBombadil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

RE: All right, lets get some things straight...


Close, but no cigar. Gimli also is allowed into Valinor, very likely at the intercession of Galadriel and Gandalf.

Frodo and Bilbo are allowed into Valinor to heal their souls before going to wherever Men go after death. They did eventually die, as all men must.
BeeBombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 04:35 PM   #7
Gwindor
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 30
Gwindor has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gwindor
Pipe

all right, lets get some things straight FOR REAL. Bilbo and Frodo never actually went all the way to Valinor, they went to the island just off of the main continent named Tol Eresea. And I believe that you are right about Gimili, though he didn't go with Bilbo and Frodo, he must have gone at a different time.

Gwindor [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
5/4 of people have problems with fractions.
Gwindor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 07:04 AM   #8
Lotrelf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
Lotrelf has just left Hobbiton.
Narya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwindor View Post
Bilbo and Frodo never actually went all the way to Valinor, they went to the island just off of the main continent named Tol Eresea.
I have wondered about something here. Bilbo, Gimli and Sam, all being mortals are allowed to sail across the Sea without any Jewel like Frodo. What was the need of that Jewel that Arwen gave him? He could have gone there without the jewel too. Does that indicate that Frodo, among all the Mortals, is allowed to go to Valinor too?
Was there any other importance it, Arwen's gem's, or just a "ticket" for Frodo, while others went without any ticket?
__________________
A short saying oft contains much wisdom.
~Sophocles
Lotrelf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 02:16 PM   #9
radagastly
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
radagastly is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Originally posted by Lotrelf:
Quote:
Was there any other importance it, Arwen's gem's
I've often wondered about this gem. There seems no indication that it was special in any way, except that it was a gift from Arwen. However, I recall that one of the times that Frodo became ill he was found fingering the gem around his neck and saying something like, "It is gone forever." or something like that (sorry, I can't look it up. My books are currently in a storage bin 1100 miles away.) This incident made me wonder if perhaps Arwen, who spent a lot of time in her youth in Lorien, with Galadriel, no doubt learning the arts that Galadriel could teach, had imbued this gem with some small magic, similar to the three Rings, or the Phial? Perhaps it gave its wearer a memory of happier times, to help give them strength through difficulties. It may have been nothing more than a gift from Arwen to Frodo, but the scene when he is sick just makes me think it may have been something more.
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
radagastly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 04:30 PM   #10
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
I feel sure I've read something more in depth regarding the gem, either from CT or from unpublished writings. I can't think of anything specific, though.

My thought therefore would be that the jewel had more of a symbolic purpose than one of actual power. Arwen's words to Frodo upon giving to him were:

Quote:
'If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!'
And she took a white gem like a star....and she set the chain about Frodo's neck.'When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,' she said, 'this will bring you aid.'
ROTK Many Partings

Perhaps the gem was first, a token that Frodo was allowed to take Arwen's place aboard ship with Elrond. But before that could occur, if Frodo felt too oppressed by his memories and experiences, the gem was a symbol of hope for the future: a reminder that there was a place he could go, and be at peace.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2014, 08:51 PM   #11
Lotrelf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
Lotrelf has just left Hobbiton.
Boots

Yes, he says something like, "it is gone forever, and all is dark and empty." What does this "it" refer to? Ring? May be. But, I'd read somewhere "it" may refer to a "light." This is why he feels "darkness and emptiness," and the Gem aids him in that darkness and emptiness providing him the light.
But, while giving the gem, Arwen had said something like "in my place you'll go" and, IIRC, Professor Tolkien also says somewhere that it was a ticket for Frodo. Wouldn't she have gone to Valinor too, so her jewel might be for that?
__________________
A short saying oft contains much wisdom.
~Sophocles
Lotrelf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 04:40 PM   #12
BeeBombadil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 32
BeeBombadil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Legolas built the boat, took Gimli aboard and sailed down the Great River for Valinor.
BeeBombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2002, 08:37 AM   #13
ArwenBaggins
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I don't know... will there be a quiz on this later?
Posts: 486
ArwenBaggins has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to ArwenBaggins Send a message via Yahoo to ArwenBaggins
Eye

I also read some where that Sam left M-E for Tol Eressa, but it said that know one new if he ever made it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Thanks,
Fëa
__________________
.:Chelsy:.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Terennth Kingdoms
ArwenBaggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2002, 03:43 PM   #14
Gwindor
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 30
Gwindor has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gwindor
Pipe

Samwise Gamgee passed over the sea in the year 61 of the fourth age right after his wife Rosie died. Do not be confused...not all hobbits passed over the sea to the undying lands, but sam was allowed to because he still carried the ring for a short while back in Mordor.

Gwindor [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
5/4 of people have problems with fractions.
Gwindor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2002, 02:01 PM   #15
Merry Brandybuck
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buckland, The Shire
Posts: 31
Merry Brandybuck has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The first time I read LOTR, I was eleven or twelve. I cried and cried when it was over. I couldn't believe Frodo had abandoned Sam like that. I couldn't believe Gandalf and Bilbo were gone. Only after I had a look at the Appendices I realised Sam would eventually meet Frodo again one day. And after reading the Silmarillion, I had a better idea of what Valinor was.
Valinor does not seem like a heaven to me. It is a place. You don't have to die to go there. To me, it's more real than that.
__________________
Legolas: Crebain from Dunland!
The rest of the Fellowship: Whatty from whatland?
Merry Brandybuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2002, 08:42 PM   #16
Gwindor
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 30
Gwindor has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gwindor
Pipe

Yeah, Valinor is not "Heaven". It is the land of the elves. No living things go to Valinor when they die. The only place we know of that holds the dead is the Hall of Mandos, which is where slain elves go.

Gwindor [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
5/4 of people have problems with fractions.
Gwindor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2002, 10:35 AM   #17
mordor136
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: snowboarding with Morgoth in the void
Posts: 221
mordor136 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I always considered the grey havens as a port with lots of buildings eroded by waves .
with a long dock streching out into the gulf .
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
It's not A.D.D I'm just ignoring you.
I'm like a super-hero with no powers or motivation
mordor136 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2002, 02:41 PM   #18
Donisile Of Mirkwood
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 36
Donisile Of Mirkwood has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Donisile Of Mirkwood
Sting

I just pictured the Grey Havens as a vast land over a huge sea where new creatures dwell,good and evil [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I cried when the i had read the whole series [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
__________________
Let it not be said and said unto your shame
that there was beauty here before you came.
Donisile Of Mirkwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2002, 04:21 PM   #19
Cazoz
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 71
Cazoz has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I saw it as a desolate place, a reminder of greater years.
I think it was sparsely populated, if populated at all, except for Cirdan and whatever helpers he had there. And Cirdan was only really dwelling there in anticipation for Gandalf's, Elrond's and Galadriel's passage to the West. I pictured it as grey (duh), a gloomy place with a long pier jutting out to sea with crappy weather and not a great deal of buildings or architecture. I imagine that the Ringbearer's ship had sat there for many years, and in these years there was little activity at the Havens, except for departing Elves, the numbers of whom would diminish with each year.

And I reckon Cirdan was just really bored waiting for their arses to get on the boat, so he could get the full low-down, and that the place was only kept active and alive because of this last instrumental passage.
Cazoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 07:25 PM   #20
Gayametwen
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Rivendell *sigh* or Mirkwood..or.....
Posts: 16
Gayametwen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

My interpretation is where the elves and men origionally came from, beyond the seas for at the end:
And the ship went into the High Sea and passed the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheldwhite shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

I think it's this was because elves do not die, when Arwen died (see Appendix) nothing was mentioned about the Grey Haven and Sam was able to reach, and later on (somewhere in the appendix) it said something about Gimili and Legolas coing back after the built a boat. I'm a bit lost, but that is all the infromaton I've gathered.
__________________
http://imagemagician.com/images/pbnai/ash.jpg ^^ Muahaha! *shudders* I'm supposed to be Gandalf living in Rivendell!
MSN: cheeziestcheezer@hotmail.com
Gayametwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2002, 05:03 AM   #21
Chrissie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Tolkien

I cried when I thought Frodo had left Sam too, and since it took me awhile before I started to read the appendices, I was certain that they never met again. After finding out that Sam, Legolas and Gimli actually did leave ME, I started crying again. (Of joy this time, hehe)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2002, 07:30 AM   #22
galadriel'smaiden
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 73
galadriel'smaiden has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to galadriel'smaiden
Question

I belive that is sort of like an eternal saturday, if you think of it like that, no work, only the peaceful crashing of waves upon the sand in a place so very disconnected from Middle Earth.
__________________
"For God's sake Ed, just take the stupid call!" said Justin.
"Hello, Mum, I'm on stage," said Ed casually.
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGH!" screamed Justin.
galadriel'smaiden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2002, 07:40 PM   #23
Arwen1858
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Gondor
Posts: 516
Arwen1858 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Arwen1858
Sting

Well, I'm pretty new to Tolkien, ME, and LOTR, but I would like to put in my opinion here. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I think of the Grey Havens sort of like a port, but not exactly. It's at the edge of the woods, with the water going out into the mist. It's foggy there, And you see the ship coming up like a shadow through the fog. AS far as what happens once you get, there... I think of it like Heaven. Elves are immortal, but that means they don't age, and can only die from a few things. I'm going to Heaven, but that doesn't make me immortal, although once I get to Heaven I will not die. Then again, maybe that does make me immortal.... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance."
Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean
Arwen1858 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 06:55 PM   #24
akhtene
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
akhtene's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: stronghold of the North
Posts: 390
akhtene has just left Hobbiton.
It's silly, but the first time I read LotR I merely cnfused HAVENS and HEAVENS. At that point I wasn't probably paying attention. It didn't make any sense and yet it did. (Well, this doesn't make any sence
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )
I understood the mistake long ago, but yetI can't help picturing the place as obscure and misty, already beyond M-E
__________________
Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века,
Чтобы ты - простил?..
А трава разлуки высока...
akhtene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 09:28 PM   #25
Itch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

yeah
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:44 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.