“Gandalf… yes, that was my name. I was Gandalf.” - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

propagandalf · 02-06-2003, 02:00 PM

That scene is one of my favorites from the book and the movie. I think Sir Ian deserves an award for that piece of acting alone. Anyway, after watching TTT for the 1 billionth time, I noticed a major flaw. Ermm.. help me out here- when the 3 hunters encountered the white wizard in Fangorn Forest, Aragorn called him Gandalf and Gandalf said: “Oh yes. That's what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.“ He said that as if it was the first time he remembered his name after the ‘Balrog incident’. As if it was the first time someone recognized him after his resurrection. The thing is- he met up with Merry and Pippen before this little encounter. The first thing the hobbits would have said to him was "Gandalf!". It's impossible for Merry and Pippen not to have called out his name upon seeing him. Ermm.. know what I mean? I really love the movie and I’m hoping it’s not really a flaw. Can there be an explanation for this?

In the book, Gandalf did not meet Merry and Pippen before his encounter with the 3 hunters (Gimli, Aragorn & Legolas). So the book is flawless [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ]

Liriodendron · 02-06-2003, 02:05 PM

I think the only explanation would be "Doh!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Merri · 02-06-2003, 02:08 PM

Propagandalf, I hope you don't mind me tacking on another question to your thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I was wondering why Merry and Pippin weren't surprised at all upon seeing Gandalf (in the book). But it seemed to imply that they had met him before, or that he had seen them . . . does anyone have a better memory than me?

lathspell · 02-06-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

I was wondering why Merry and Pippin weren't surprised at all upon seeing Gandalf (in the book).

In the movie, I think, it is a flaw. But as for the books, Merry and Pippin are surprised when they see him. The arrival of Gandalf with Theoden and company at Isengard is not the first time they see Gandalf, they met him earlier as well. At that time they were surprised.

Quote:

'Suddenly a great horse came striding up, like a flash of silver. It was already dark, but I could see the riders face clearly: it seemed to shine, and all his clothes were white. I just said up, staring, with my mouth open. I tried to call out, and couldn't. There was no need. He halted just by us and looked down at us. "Gandalf!" I said at last, but my voice was only a whisper.

This is Pippin speaking in Flotsam and Jetsam - TTT.

Kirsanne_Tolebrass · 02-06-2003, 04:47 PM

Well, they did change around some things from book to movie, like when the 3 hunters first meet Gandalf, they don't meet him like they do in the book and all, but what can I say, I know that they change the movie from the book, oh well.

Merri · 02-06-2003, 05:07 PM

Ahh. I must have skipped over that part when I read the books . . .

I don't remember anything from the movies, but I only have vague memories from the books, so I shouldn't have asked that before rereading the books, I guess.

I must go and reread them for the third time . . .

Gorwingel · 02-06-2003, 05:32 PM

That was one part of the film that was very confusing for me, when I first saw it I didn't understand who Merry and Pippin met, I think I still thought it was Saurman, until Treebeard said that he told Gandalf that he was going to take good care of them. Though the part when the three hunters first meet Gandalf was amazing in the film, that was one part where everyone clapped when I first saw it.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-06-2003, 07:22 PM

This is what happens when you play around with JRRT's carefully wrought text. There are a lot of flaws in the films like this. Things that just don't work because they cut a scene here or added another there. JRRT's plot is extremely complex - nothing happens without a reason or that cannot be explained. It doesn't really matter in the films because most who see them won't notice them, and they certainly didn't spoil my enjoyment of them.

But, I do really wonder whether it was really necessary for Treebeard to take Merry and Pippin to Gandalf. All that it acheives is to build up a little suspense by making the (uninitiated) audience think that the nasty old tree has delivered them to Saruman.

The Green Ringwraith · 02-06-2003, 09:35 PM

Two words: Extended version.

More words: There are most likely deleted scenes we do not know about that will help us understand. Hom hoom.

propagandalf · 02-07-2003, 07:39 PM

Hahaaa.. It should still make sense minus the extended edition, in my opinion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

The Saucepan Man- the flaw does not spoil the film for me either. It just bugs me a little. I guess I want the movie to stand on its own. I want it to be perfect cuz I plan to see it over and over again. (how do you spell obsession?) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lathspell- You left out the good part. This is what Pippen had to say about meeting Gandalf:

‘Did he say: “Hullo Pippen! This is a pleasant surprise!”? No, indeed! He said: “Get up, you tom-fool of a took! Where, in the name of wonder, in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick!’

Heeeheee. I just love the books. I am rereading TTT right now. Somewhat worried about the next movie. So many things to happen yet. How are they gonna fit all that in one film? Yikes.

02-08-2003, 12:14 PM

Another thing that bothers me about the movie is the fact that they left in the Entmoot deciding on the fact that Merry and Pippin are not Orcs. This is kinda stupid since according to PJ, Treebeard was already assured of this by Gandalf. see what happens when you throw in an event thats not supposed to be there? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-08-2003, 02:23 PM

I agree-the Ents came across as complete idiots. All my friends can't take them seriously now.

Kalimac · 02-08-2003, 10:57 PM

I agree that there was a definite inconsistency introduced by shuffling the scenes around like that. There's no way that Merry and/or Pippin wouldn't have called out Gandalf's name unless they were physically gagged. It'll be interesting to see how the extended DVD handles it (NO, I'm not saying that this forgives everything. Just that it may ameliorate it slightly).

There is one interesting bit in "Flotsam and Jetsam" though, when Pippin is telling the story of his and Merry's adventures, and he tells about how when they described Gandalf's fall to Treebeard, Treebeard "looked at us rather curiously, I thought" (sorry, the book isn't in front of me so the quote may not be exact). Also, in the chapter where they first meet Treebeard, he shows a definite reluctance to believe in their news. There's a heavy implication there that Treebeard has seen Gandalf in the woods even before meeting with the two hobbits, and of course the question there is; how did he know it was Gandalf if Gandalf didn't know himself who he was? He was all in white, and was easy enough to mistake for Saruman, yet somehow Treebeard knew. Hoom, hmmm, as he might say...

Neferchoirwen · 02-09-2003, 10:57 AM

I could be "pro-movie" (quite apologetically: movies from books are almost always complicated things) in saying what I'll have to say: maybe Merry and Pippin were too dumbfound to say anyhting in the first place. Well, I agree on what the extended dvd will have to do about this, but I'm sure that the editors will try to smooth that out.

But in the mean time, let me just quote:

Quote:

"Doh!"

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

rutslegolas · 05-28-2004, 11:56 PM

well certainly there are flaws in the movie like the king of dead marches with his army onto the fields of pelennor and i think this is one of them.

Isowen · 08-05-2004, 12:58 PM

Green Ringwraith: I have the extended version and it doesn't make that much of a difference. The scene is the same, only extended (obviously), there is no new scene there.
Maybe Merry and Pippin were just so surprised, that they couldn't say anything.

Morsul the Dark · 08-05-2004, 02:39 PM

Ah but the book is flawed as well we can argue of whether or not Merry and Pippin see Gandalf prior to them arriving at Isengard (though there is already a quote above stating they did) But he also was at loth lorien where he got his white cloak and such certainl Galadriel would tell him his name.

luthien-elvenprincess · 08-09-2004, 04:52 PM

Gandalf was known different names by different races. The elves knew him as Mithrandir, therefore Galadriel wouldn't have called him Galdalf. Treebeard, being so old, probable knew him as Olorin, or at least, Mithrandir since the Elves taught the Ents to speak. So, Treebeard probably didn't refer to Gandalf as GAndalf when he met him as The White.

Gandalf met Aragorn, Gimli and Legalos on March 1, and then met Merry and Pippen on March 3 (see appendix B)...therefore, Aragorn's "Gandalf" exclaimation was indeed the first time he heard it since arriving back.

02-06-2003, 02:00 PM	#1
propagandalf Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Grey Havens Posts: 29	“Gandalf… yes, that was my name. I was Gandalf.” That scene is one of my favorites from the book and the movie. I think Sir Ian deserves an award for that piece of acting alone. Anyway, after watching TTT for the 1 billionth time, I noticed a major flaw. Ermm.. help me out here- when the 3 hunters encountered the white wizard in Fangorn Forest, Aragorn called him Gandalf and Gandalf said: “Oh yes. That's what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.“ He said that as if it was the first time he remembered his name after the ‘Balrog incident’. As if it was the first time someone recognized him after his resurrection. The thing is- he met up with Merry and Pippen before this little encounter. The first thing the hobbits would have said to him was "Gandalf!". It's impossible for Merry and Pippen not to have called out his name upon seeing him. Ermm.. know what I mean? I really love the movie and I’m hoping it’s not really a flaw. Can there be an explanation for this? In the book, Gandalf did not meet Merry and Pippen before his encounter with the 3 hunters (Gimli, Aragorn & Legolas). So the book is flawless [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. [ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: propagandalf ] __________________ if you don't ask me out to dinner i don't eat. -radiohead

02-06-2003, 02:05 PM	#2
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	I think the only explanation would be "Doh!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

02-06-2003, 02:08 PM	#3
Merri Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 221	Propagandalf, I hope you don't mind me tacking on another question to your thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I was wondering why Merry and Pippin weren't surprised at all upon seeing Gandalf (in the book). But it seemed to imply that they had met him before, or that he had seen them . . . does anyone have a better memory than me? __________________ Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.

02-06-2003, 04:47 PM	#5
Kirsanne_Tolebrass Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 17	Well, they did change around some things from book to movie, like when the 3 hunters first meet Gandalf, they don't meet him like they do in the book and all, but what can I say, I know that they change the movie from the book, oh well. __________________ Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Ignore me, everyone else does. :( @~'~,~

02-06-2003, 05:07 PM	#6
Merri Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 221	Ahh. I must have skipped over that part when I read the books . . . I don't remember anything from the movies, but I only have vague memories from the books, so I shouldn't have asked that before rereading the books, I guess. I must go and reread them for the third time . . . __________________ Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Children of the Mind, by Orson Scott Card.

02-06-2003, 05:32 PM	#7
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	That was one part of the film that was very confusing for me, when I first saw it I didn't understand who Merry and Pippin met, I think I still thought it was Saurman, until Treebeard said that he told Gandalf that he was going to take good care of them. Though the part when the three hunters first meet Gandalf was amazing in the film, that was one part where everyone clapped when I first saw it. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

02-06-2003, 07:22 PM	#8
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	This is what happens when you play around with JRRT's carefully wrought text. There are a lot of flaws in the films like this. Things that just don't work because they cut a scene here or added another there. JRRT's plot is extremely complex - nothing happens without a reason or that cannot be explained. It doesn't really matter in the films because most who see them won't notice them, and they certainly didn't spoil my enjoyment of them. But, I do really wonder whether it was really necessary for Treebeard to take Merry and Pippin to Gandalf. All that it acheives is to build up a little suspense by making the (uninitiated) audience think that the nasty old tree has delivered them to Saruman. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-06-2003, 09:35 PM	#9
The Green Ringwraith Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On the edge of the world I'll roam and the home of the wolf will be my home. Posts: 77	Two words: Extended version. More words: There are most likely deleted scenes we do not know about that will help us understand. Hom hoom. __________________ -What is it about the Green ones?- "...they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths... This one just got a little too gamma ray happy."

02-07-2003, 07:39 PM	#10
propagandalf Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Grey Havens Posts: 29	Hahaaa.. It should still make sense minus the extended edition, in my opinion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. The Saucepan Man- the flaw does not spoil the film for me either. It just bugs me a little. I guess I want the movie to stand on its own. I want it to be perfect cuz I plan to see it over and over again. (how do you spell obsession?) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Lathspell- You left out the good part. This is what Pippen had to say about meeting Gandalf: ‘Did he say: “Hullo Pippen! This is a pleasant surprise!”? No, indeed! He said: “Get up, you tom-fool of a took! Where, in the name of wonder, in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick!’ Heeeheee. I just love the books. I am rereading TTT right now. Somewhat worried about the next movie. So many things to happen yet. How are they gonna fit all that in one film? Yikes. __________________ if you don't ask me out to dinner i don't eat. -radiohead

02-08-2003, 12:14 PM	#11
Stormcrow Guest Posts: n/a	Another thing that bothers me about the movie is the fact that they left in the Entmoot deciding on the fact that Merry and Pippin are not Orcs. This is kinda stupid since according to PJ, Treebeard was already assured of this by Gandalf. see what happens when you throw in an event thats not supposed to be there? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

02-08-2003, 02:23 PM	#12
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I agree-the Ents came across as complete idiots. All my friends can't take them seriously now. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-08-2003, 10:57 PM	#13
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I agree that there was a definite inconsistency introduced by shuffling the scenes around like that. There's no way that Merry and/or Pippin wouldn't have called out Gandalf's name unless they were physically gagged. It'll be interesting to see how the extended DVD handles it (NO, I'm not saying that this forgives everything. Just that it may ameliorate it slightly). There is one interesting bit in "Flotsam and Jetsam" though, when Pippin is telling the story of his and Merry's adventures, and he tells about how when they described Gandalf's fall to Treebeard, Treebeard "looked at us rather curiously, I thought" (sorry, the book isn't in front of me so the quote may not be exact). Also, in the chapter where they first meet Treebeard, he shows a definite reluctance to believe in their news. There's a heavy implication there that Treebeard has seen Gandalf in the woods even before meeting with the two hobbits, and of course the question there is; how did he know it was Gandalf if Gandalf didn't know himself who he was? He was all in white, and was easy enough to mistake for Saruman, yet somehow Treebeard knew. Hoom, hmmm, as he might say... __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

05-28-2004, 11:56 PM	#15
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	well certainly there are flaws in the movie like the king of dead marches with his army onto the fields of pelennor and i think this is one of them. __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

08-05-2004, 12:58 PM	#16
Isowen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The blackened depths Posts: 86	Green Ringwraith: I have the extended version and it doesn't make that much of a difference. The scene is the same, only extended (obviously), there is no new scene there. Maybe Merry and Pippin were just so surprised, that they couldn't say anything. __________________ I hope Butterbur sends this promptly. A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber -room: Thing wanted always burried, If he forgets, I shall roast him.

08-05-2004, 02:39 PM	#17
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Ah but the book is flawed as well we can argue of whether or not Merry and Pippin see Gandalf prior to them arriving at Isengard (though there is already a quote above stating they did) But he also was at loth lorien where he got his white cloak and such certainl Galadriel would tell him his name. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-09-2004, 04:52 PM	#18
luthien-elvenprincess Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: what are you doing here? did you come here to eat my popcorn? Posts: 1,031	Gandalf was known different names by different races. The elves knew him as Mithrandir, therefore Galadriel wouldn't have called him Galdalf. Treebeard, being so old, probable knew him as Olorin, or at least, Mithrandir since the Elves taught the Ents to speak. So, Treebeard probably didn't refer to Gandalf as GAndalf when he met him as The White. Gandalf met Aragorn, Gimli and Legalos on March 1, and then met Merry and Pippen on March 3 (see appendix B)...therefore, Aragorn's "Gandalf" exclaimation was indeed the first time he heard it since arriving back. __________________ York Peppermint Patties taste better than Pearson's Peppermint Patties! But, Junior Mints are the best!