King Elrond?

[the phantom]

(I did a quick search for this question and didn't see that it had been asked before, but if it has, give me a link to it.)

Why is Elrond called Lord Elrond or Master Elrond, instead of King Elrond. If I'm remembering all the family trees correctly, he has a right to claim it through descent. Not only could he have been declared king of the Noldor after Gil-Galad's death, but I believe he also could claim kingship over Elwe's (Thingol's) house.

The following lists show the kingship passing down from person to person, and eventually down to Elrond.

Finwe (died)- Feanor (died)- Maehdros (passed title to Fingolfin, died)- Fingolfin (died)- Fingon (died)- Turgon (died)- Gil-Galad (died)- then it should pass to Turgon's descendants- Tuor (through wedding Idril, left ME)- Earendil (left ME)- ELROND

Elwe (died)- Beren (through wedding Luthien, died)- Dior (died)- Elurid & Elurin (died)- Elwing (wedded Earendil, left ME)- ELROND

Is this correct? If so, why doesn't he have the title?

[Dondagnirion]

There is an easy explanation to this. There was no king. Galadriel was queen of the noldor even though she was not called that. She was Fingolfins daughter and Fingons sister and the eldest of the Noldor in ME at the time of the war of the rings. It could also be argued that if a male elf were needed it could be Elrond, Cirdan, or Celeborn. Hope this answers your question.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

[Tar Elenion]

Galadriel was not queen of the Noldor, and she was not Fingolfin's daughter, nor Fingon's sister (she was the daughter of Finarfin and sister of Finrod).
It seems that women were not eligible to inherit the 'kingship' as they were passed over in favor of (younger) males.
It is possible that Elrond did not want the kingship, and any such title would have been purely nominal after the death of Gil-galad. It is also noted in The Problem of Ros in PoME that Elrond actually prefered to reckon his lineage to Thingol instead of Turgon.
It is interesting that in earlier tales it was Elrond who 'ruled in the west of the world', after the overthrow of Morgoth, until JRRT invented Gil-galad.

[Phrim]

Neither Cirdan nor Celeborn was eligible to be King of the Noldor, seeing as neither of them were Noldorin. Cirdan was a Teleri, and Celeborn was a Silvan elf, of Thingol's brethren.

As for why Elrond didn't lay claim to any sort of Kingly title, I think it was because the so-called Last Alliance of Elves and Men was indeed the last time the elves would use strength of arms to thwart evil. Since the remnant of the Noldor was but a shadow of what it had once been, no further wars were possible, and no King was needed.

[Adanadhel]

Yes Phrim, I agree.

There were not enough Noldor left to have a king. Elrond was like the mayor a of a small city or village (Rivendel). It would have been ludicrous for him to claim kinghsip in that case.

Imagine the mayor of your local town declaring himself king - he would be a laughing stock!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

C. and Fingon (died)- Turgon (died)- Gil-Galad (died)- then it should pass to Turgon's descendants- Tuor (through wedding Idril, left ME)- Earendil (left ME)- ELROND

posted by-the phantom

1.After Turgon's death it passed on to Finarfin's descendants, hence Gil-Gilad, son of Orodreth, grand-son of Finarfin.

2. The kingship couldn't pass beyond Turgon, due to the fact that Tuor wasn't a Elf, he was a man, and Earendil was half Elven. I think that only fully Elven peoples could claim kingship of the Noldor. Thus Elrond not being king.Plus i thnk the number of the Noldro would've been few, and the whole kingship would've ended with Gil-Galad's death.

There is an easy explanation to this. There was no king. Galadriel was queen of the noldor even though she was not called that. She was Fingolfins daughter and Fingons sister and the eldest of the Noldor in ME at the time of the war of the rings. It could also be argued that if a male elf were needed it could be Elrond, Cirdan, or Celeborn. Hope this answers your question

posted by Dondagnirion.

1. Galadriel wasn't queen of the Noldor. She never claimed to be.

2. Galadriel was the youngest child of Finarfin, younger brother of Fingolfin ,and youngest of all Finwe's four chldren. Fingon was her cousin.

3. Cirdan wasn't a descendant of Elwe, though he was a relation. Celeborn wasn't a direct descendant either, he was either a descendant of Elmo, or Olwe, depending on which version you take.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Manardariel]

Good points everyone. Here´s another reason:

The elves didn´t need a King Elrond. They all had their own leaders: Cirdan for the Grey Hsvens, Galadriel&Celeborn in Lórien, Tharanduil in Mirkwood etc. Besides, Elrond was considered the leader ("king," if that´s what you want to call it) in matters of lore and wisdom anyway. His house was something like the interlectuall and moral "court" of Middle-Earth anyway, and the other´s accepted them as their interlectuall leader, but not as their king.

And something else: do you seriously think Galadriel would have let her son-in-law become her king?? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Findegil]

Well, Galadriel accepted her nephwe once removed (Gilgalad) as her king. So why not her son in law?

But they were all of female decent from Finwe. And obviously only male decent counted for the kingship. Else it would have gone to Earendil once Turgon was dead. If there was any to claim the high-kingship of the Noldor it might be Gildor Inglorion if you following Michael Martinez essay in that he was a son of Finrod (Inglor) after his reincarnation.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Melkor the Morgoth]

But there IS a High King of the Noldor!

King Finarfin, ruling from Tirion upon Túna

[Dondagnirion]

Ok, ok, I did get the Galadriel thing backwards (I realized that about 5 mins after my post that it was the wrong set of elves that I connected her too), but Celeborn was stated to have been from the undying lands and only a "Kinsman Of Thingol" by marriage in Unfinished Tales. I can find the text that describes this quite easily if you guys want but I know its in Unfinished Tales, I just finished re-reading that again. This means that he would have been more apt to be considered king of the Noldor. Sorry for not explainging my reasoning more clearly earlier.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But there IS a High King of the Noldor!
King Finarfin, ruling from Tirion upon Túna

Finarfin isn't 'High King' since there aren't nay Noldorin princes who claim kingship, that he can rule over. (In the Third Age, that is.)

[lord of dor-lomin]

After Turgon's death it passed on to Finarfin's descendants, hence Gil-Gilad, son of Orodreth, grand-son of Finarfin.

posted by-Inderjit Sanghera

Gil-Gilad was Fingon's son, not Orodreth's, so the kingship did not ever pass to Finarfin's house. If anyone could claim the kingship, it would indeed be Elrond.

But you guys are right, he probably didn't because there wasn't much of a kingdom. There were Noldor in Rivendell, and that's pretty much it (the rest were dead or gone to the havens). Plus, maybe in elven kingdoms, descent had to be male to male (hence Dior being known as Thingol's heir, and not necessarily King Dior).

And if it were possible for a kingship to pass on through daughters, then Elrond's claim to high kingship over all the Noldor would beat out Finarfin, because the kingship stays in the house of the oldest son (Fingolfin).

But who knows what the rules are with elves?

[Ailios]

Findegil: Gildor cannot be Finrod's son after reincarnation because he is an exile. He wouldn't be that if he came to Middle-Earth in the second age.

[Tar Elenion]

Inderjit Sanghera wrote:
The kingship couldn't pass beyond Turgon, due to the fact that Tuor wasn't a Elf, he was a man, and Earendil was half Elven. I think that only fully Elven peoples could claim kingship of the Noldor. Thus Elrond not being king.

Tuor and Earendil both ruled over the Noldorin exiles of Gondolin. Turin essentially rulled in Nargothrond when Orodreth became ineffectual, and before there was a Gil-galad to rule in the west of the world it was Elrond who had that place. Of course Dior also inherited Doriath. I don't think being 'fully Elven' has anything to do with it.

[Rumil]

Could Elrond have been considered the king of Gondor after the line of kings failed and the stewards took over? As far as the Gondorians were concerned the 'Northern line' was degenerate therefore Elros' brother would surely have had a claim on the throne?

[Tar Elenion]

Findegil wrote:
But they were all of female decent from Finwe. And obviously only male decent counted for the kingship. Else it would have gone to Earendil once Turgon was dead.

It is unproven that only male line descent counted for kingship. Dior inherited through Luthien. Maeglin seems to have thought he would be Turgon's heir (through a female line). It was Elrond who ruled in the west of the world until Gil-galad replaced him.
Also note that in PoME JRRT states: "The Third Age ended with the departure of Elrond in 3022 [>3021]; and the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the elf-realms of the westlands." He also writes: "'[Aragorn] Became King Elessar of Gondor and Arthedain, aided in the overthrow of Sauron with which Third Age ended in 3019. He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West.'"
There seems to be some evidence of female-line inheritance.

[Phrim]

Interesting quote that randomly came across today... (ROTK Appendix A, pg 314):

The sons of Earendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants.

Is Tolkien implying that there *is* in fact a King of the High-elves after Gil-galad?

[Tar Elenion]

No, he is only stating that their bloodline continued.

[Ultimatejoe]

No kingdom, no kingship. Simple as that.

[doug*platypus]

Ah, but which comes first - the king or the kingdom? The chicken or the egg? Food for thought!

*develops sudden hunger pangs and leaves for kitchen*

Munch-munch... Elrond was not descended from Gil-Galad. For him to 'claim' kingship, as we all seem to agree he would have had to do (since it would not automatically fall to him), long-winded debates and conferences would have ensued. Squabbling and politics is infinitely more suited to the race of Men than to the noble Elves. Good for them!

[Amarinth]

interesting discussion. i agree that elrond was never called king nor held its title simply because by the third age the elven kingdoms had diminished (and continued to diminish) significantly, to the point that holdover realms such as rivendell and lorien were fading out of knowledge or being perceived by many with mystery or magic. also, noldo population was on a steady decline because of the open road to the west. it would have been impractical for elrond to wield kingship under these circumstances.

there was also a different form of civilization more dominant in middle-earth by the third age, one that was dominated by the kingdoms of men. its so much like european history in a way, the diminished state of aristocracy when the dominion of once world powers like england, spain and portugal receded with the rapid growth of democratic republics, a new world order. in the third age the position of high-elven king had become somewhat irrelevant because men increased their numbers and the affairs of their kingdoms dominated middle-earth. it was more in the context of political development, rather than ancestry, that elrond's kingship was not wielded as had his previous ancestors.

peace, fellow downers [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Tuor and Earendil both ruled over the Noldorin exiles of Gondolin. Turin essentially rulled in Nargothrond when Orodreth became ineffectual, and before there was a Gil-galad to rule in the west of the world it was Elrond who had that place. Of course Dior also inherited Doriath. I don't think being 'fully Elven' has anything to do with it. quote by Tar-Elenion

But isn't there a diffrence between 'ruling over' something and actually being King, is there not?

For example, Cirdan ruled over the Falathrim, but Elwe was king, of the Sindar.

Gil-Gilad was Fingon's son, not Orodreth's, so the kingship did not ever pass to Finarfin's house. If anyone could claim the kingship, it would indeed be Elrond-posted by lord of dor-lomin

Here's Gil-gald's final family tree, as Tolkien saw it:

Angrod--->Orodreth---->Gil-Galad

[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[lord of dor-lomin]

Angrod-->Orodreth-->Gil-Gilad

Where the heck do you get that from? I've never seen that progression before, not on any family tree I've seen anyway.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

HomE 12;Shibboleth of Feanor

[lord of dor-lomin]

Oh, well I've been going off the Silmarilion, and the family trees in there. Isn't the information that made it into the Silmarilion considered to be a reworked and more final version compared to HOME?

[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ]

[Tar Elenion]

But isn't there a diffrence between 'ruling over' something and actually being King, is there not?

It goes to show that there does not seem to be an aversion among the Elves to accepting someone who is partly or fully human as their lord.
The most explicit statement we have regarding how the kingship over the Noldor should pass (though not all agreed) comes from Maedhros:
"For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë, and not the least wise.'"