Aragorn vs. Denethor....???

[tinewelt]

just pondering another what if question....

When Denethor is going mad and talking with gandalf in Rath Dinen, he says

So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, i will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.

IF, for some reason Minas Tirith has stood and the battle won with Denethor still alive, what would have been the outcome? Does the people of Gondor follow their lord, or show loyalty to their king? There is much evidence to prove Aragorns claim, but I do not believe Denethor (because he said it) would have relinquished his command to him by choice. He showed no reverence or respect for the line of the kings. I guess it would also depend on which way Faramir would choose, his king or his father. Also, (if the people choose Aragorn) what is to be come of Denethor? He obviously could not resume the title of Steward. Would he be exiled, imprisoned or put to death? ( these are options that are hard to consider, but I do not believe Denethor would have continued to live under Aragorns rule, no matter what his status. Any thoughts?

[Knight of Gondor]

This is a good question! I wonder too whether or not Denethor would surrender the throne if he survived. I suppose the easist answer to give is "the point is moot. He didn't, he died."

Still...

If Aragorn came out victorious in the war, then would it not shatter the evil and fey mood that Denethor possessed via the Palantir? Yet, it still seemed that the attitude was not one of devotion to the true King. Am I just thinking only of the movie, or did the quote "Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no King" originate from Boromir more than just in the movie?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I think that quote was actually just in the movie, Knight. So it can be disregarded. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Boromir would by no means have said that anyway; put it down to another of the woeful character warpings of Peter Jackson's desecration.

I should think that the people would have mostly followed Aragorn, after his victory, his true person revealed and his work in the Houses of Healing. Everyone who knew he was made it pretty well known who he was at the end.

For thy king is victorious...

Course, anything could have happened. But I'd have thought that the overwhelming feeling would be with the King, whether or Denethor recovered sufficiently to hand over rule or not (one imagines him being locked up if he didn't, and Faramir taking his place anyway).

[tinewelt]

I agree. The evidence is overwhelming that Aragorn is a true king. I believe the people, and faramir would have followed Aragorn. AS for Denethor, I am not quite sure what I believe would have happened. HE has to much pride to apologize and accept a position less that what he has already obtained for years upon years. probably imprisonment or exile, which would be accepted by Faramir, I believe.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think there's a good chance that Denethor would submit to Aragorn, after all he wouldn't have much support if he stood against Aragorn, and would possibly have become a figure of ridicule or scorn. It would then be probable that Denethor wouldn't want to hang about Minas Tirith for much longer and might even go wandering for the rest of his days, in some sadness.

[Arvedui24]

I have often wondered that too, i dont think Denethor would have accepted the role of Prince of Ithilien that Faramir took, he was far more power-hungry and proud. It would have been a very interesing scenario tho, could we have seen another Arvedui scenario being refused the kingship or dread to think another Kin-strife??

[Knight of Gondor]

Denethor plainly told Gandalf that it would take a lot to prove Aragorn was from the line of Elendil. And even then, he said, it was a ragged line of tattered kings or something like that...showing he even had disrespect and contempt for the line of Isildur. I wonder if that was before his madness began...?

[Kalimac]

Hmm. What if Denethor had lived...interesting question. As horrifying as "The Pyre of Denethor" is, it's hard to hide that it's incredibly convenient for the plot that he should check out at that particular time.

Denethor has been slowly going under since his favourite son Boromir died, and has been looking into his Palantir far more than is healthy (not that any Palantir-gazing can really be called healthy, except maybe for Aragorn). He certainly is still powerful; witness those first few scenes with Gandalf and Pippin. But even so, his grasp is getting weaker and he won't see it - when they first arrive in Gondor, it's already a ghost town, and men speak much more of Faramir than they do of Denethor, and certainly the impression is that if they had to pick one to follow, it would be Faramir. Why not? Denethor doesn't seem to have gotten out in ages, whereas Faramir is still fighting in the midst of them. So in the end, had everyone lived, they would likely have gone where Faramir went, that is, to Aragorn.

That being said, I can't see Denethor living very long in any scenario. Even had he been prevented from burning himself, or had never thought to do it, he probably wouldn't survive Aragorn's arrival long. He must know in his heart that Aragorn's claim is just; Denethor does have the longsight, after all, and he's certainly no fool. He would be able to read the truth in Aragorn's mind as soon as he saw him.

So Denethor might have built his pyre later, after people had followed Faramir to join up with Aragorn. Or even had he managed to quell the people through the remains of his power, the knowledge that the true king really had returned and that the past was gone would be eating him up. One way or the other, either of "breaking up" - just getting so depressed that his body couldn't maintain itself any more - or through a more active method, he would have died.

[tinewelt]

I think it did occur before his madness set in. With the Palantir, he surely seen and heard of aragorn before the seige of gondor and the incident with faramir. Also, i believe that denethor already knew in his heart that Aragorn was the true king, and also that Aragorn may be able to heal faramir. I think he did what he did to save himself from having to step down in front of his people, which could be embarassing and shameful for him if gandalf revealed his words upon the steps of Rath Dinen.( if gondor survived, which was doubtful in his eyes) As for the kin-strife, I do not believe that it would have been taken that far. I do believe that he could have been executed, as in the case of Eol the dark elf in Gondolin. But Aragorn and Faramirs hearts are true and forgiving. I do not believe Denethor would have died unless Aragorn was left with no choice. thats just opinion though. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Guinevere]

Indeed Denethor knew Aragorn from before, from the time when he, incognito under the name of Thorongil, had served Denethor's father Ecthelion. Denethor was jealous of Thorongil, because

" ...he was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."

" Later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him."

(Appendix A , The Stewards)
So Denethors resentment went a long time back!

[ September 14, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[FingolfintheBold]

Just to put a little faith in Denthor, i think perhaps things could have been much better, had the Battle ended Denethor lived. There isnt much hope that he would have snapped out of it, but with such bold counsilors as Gandalf and Imrahil and his son, perhaps he could have been persuaded. You have to give him a bit of slack, though. It was natural to distrust some ranger he had never met in true guise that had, from his point of veiw usurped the love of his father and his people. Maybe he could have seen the light, though, had Aragorn revealed his true glory as he did with Eomer. perhaps he would have rallied behind Aragorn in the end...

[lindil]

He had been deluded and poisoned mentally and spiritually by saroun via the palantir.

In addition, he knew, I believe, this 'ranger of the north ' was the warrior fromerly known as Thorongil. He was already ill-disposed toward Aragorn/Arnor and prideful far before he became Steward.

So I think had he survived there are 2 likely scenarios:

he would still have killed himself, perhaps more privately, after breaking the staff of the stewards on his knee and castigating the Gondorians...

or


he would have left in a snit, bitter and still likely to kill himself or go the way of saruman.

Perhaps he would have journeyed to Rauros and said farewell to Boromir and jumped.

It is pretty much impossible to see Denethor receive healing from Aragorn or anyone.

[dkhyrosha]

Originally Posted by lindil

Perhaps he would have journeyed to Rauros and said farewell to Boromir and jumped.

That's probably the most likely out of all of them so far

but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

I think Denethor would've ended up being killed anyway. I doubt highly that he would want to survive, because he looked into the palantir and saw what he thought to be the end of his family line, and of Gondor

[tinewelt]

I was thinking about this today when i seen this in ROTK....

Gandalf it was that last spoke to Faramir ere he rode east. "do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness, " he said. "you will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you , Faramir , and will remember it ere the end. Farewell!

I think this is an obvious foresight of gandalf, percieving that Faramir would be needed to convince Denethor of Aragorns claim, and to also help in the task of getting Denethor to step down willingly and in good graces of the king. I guess that Faramir is the real key to this situation.

[Phrim]

I agree with Kalimac and lindil, there is no way the relationship between Denethor and Aragorn could have been mended. Denethor was too proud to hand over the rule of Gondor to anyone, regardless of lineage or battlefield prowess. While the general populous may have accepted Aragorn as their king, Denethor, already teetering on insanity, would become even more bitter, perhaps to the point of suicide.

And, all insanity aside, remember that Denethor had plenty of justification to deny Aragorn the crown. Gondor had survived for 975 years under the Ruling Stewards, and no one actually believed the King would one day return--this was at best a fairy tale. Denethor, a loremaster in his own right, knew that the line of Anarion was dead, as Earnur the last king of Gondor had been slain by the Witch-King, and was childless. Furthermore, the line of Isildur was already rejected by the Dunedain of Gondor as having a valid claim to its throne, as Ardevui the Last-King in Fornost made the claim on the death of the childless King Ondoher of Gondor. Gondor's reply to Ardevui's claim was:

'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

In the mind of Denethor, who was versed in this history, there was not a man alive who had a valid claim to the throne of Gondor. He would yield to no one.

[Finwe]

I think that the words Boromir said at the Council, "Gondor has no King. Gondor needs no King." could have actually originated from Denethor. After all, the latter probably was jealous of, and hated, Aragorn/Thorongil for quite a long time, and passed on his suspicions to his son. Denethor was also bitter about the fact that Faramir, the "black sheep" of teh family, had inherited the Numenorean blood, rather than Boromir who Denethor loved. I don't think that jealousy affected Boromir, but that resentment probably affected him.

As for Denethor's eventual fate had Aragorn defeated Sauron, knowing Tolkien, Aragorn would have healed Denethor, and let him go wherever he wanted. Tolkien was the kind of man who wanted to believe that everyone had some good left in him, and Denethor did. Perhaps Aragorn's healing would have had a sort of "Bilbo Effect." Denethor would have gone off wherever he wanted and peacefully died.

[Lhunardawen]

There are 2 cases I think would happen:

1. Denethor would submit to the kingship of Aragorn and remain as his Steward until his own death (maybe after Aragorn's "healing"). Aragorn showed manifestations of his kingship during the war which are strong enough to disregard. It would as if tell Denethor "Do you think I would (and can) do this if I were not the king?" Then Denethor would admit that Aragorn is the king... a happy ending.

OR...

2. Denethor would still harden his heart and refuse to submit to Aragorn.
a. He will leave Gondor and go somewhere else (this one I doubt).
b. He will still burn himself on a pyre or commit any other form of suicide just so he would not be "under" Aragorn's rule.
c. The people of Gondor themselves will kill him (kinda brutal, however...so I also doubt it).

Do I make sense? Or did cheering practice make me stupid? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think that Denethor would eventually submit himself to Aragorn and respect him. However I do believe this act would take a long long time.

[Arothir]

Arathor of Barahir, I highly doubt Denethor would submit to Aragorn. Given his insanity in the Pyre of Denethor, he'd be dragged to the dungeons screaming,"Wretch of the line of Isildur! Go back to the North!"

Hahahaha!

[Orophin]

The job of the stuard is to run the kingdom until the rightful king returns. Aragorn is the rightful king and he has returned. Problem solved.

[Lobelia]

Who knows? Perhaps Aragorn's healing powers extend to mental healing. Denethor has been a good Steward in his time. His son's death and the Palantir between them have helped drive him over the edge, though, yes, he does have a long, long resentment.

In any case, I can't see Aragorn executing him. I find it easier to imagine the healing hands of the King managing to heal his mind.

Ya I also think that the people of Arnor would have followed Aragorn as their King and Denethor would may have been exiled .

But certainly Denethor would not have agreed to give away the kingship to Elessar

[nynnd1]

I think that a lot of the people of Gondor would have waited to see what Faramir's opinion was as they seemed to respect him more than Denethor. The people of all other good realms would have chosen Aragorn, he helped Rohan, the Hobbits that matter love him and Imrahil accepts him.

Aragorn is the one.

[Dininziliel]

Guinivere's post contained the key information for me. Given that Denethor had had years to perfect & enrich his distrust, jealousy, pride, and covetousness, he would have had a difficult time turning over his stewardship even without the added and very potent influence of the palantir. Denethor had fallen into a rigid, conservative and decadent approach toward ruling Gondor. This is described by Gandalf in "The Last Debate":

'Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?" said Imrahil. "That would be no new counsel," said Gandalf. "Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor? But no! I said this would be prudent. I do not counsel prudence. . . ."

Denethor had staked all on this approach and would have lost the city, and all else, quite quickly had not Gandalf, Imrahil, etc., come to Gondor's aid.

There is another quote revealing Denethor's mind in this matter. From "The Pyre of Denethor":

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught : neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

So, add up all the above quotes, throw in the palantir, & then consider the effect of all this occurring slowly over a long time, and it seems pretty clear that Denethor would have been unable to come to terms with the fact that for all his wisdom and Numenorean sightedness, he had turned out to be the "wizard's" pupil (Sauron's) and failed as both ruler and father. Unless . . .

I'd like to think, and this could naturally follow given what we know of the characters & Tolkien, that Faramir would have been the only possible vehicle for Denethor to redeem himself. It is touchingly ironic, since Denethor had demeaned his devoted son for so long, and even sent Faramir on a suicide mission. The only thing that could have saved Denethor was love--Faramir's love, which would certainly have been freely given to his father. Would Denethor have chosen to accept it? I'd like to think so. Denethor would have come to the breaking point, surrendered to acceptance of Faramir's love, then faded away peacefully on his regular bed, and not a firey pyre.

[Boromir88]

Kalimac, Denethor was probably started going mad when Ecthelion died. Since, you had this "Thorongil" who was supposedly the King of Gondor, and Denethor was worried about himself being the heir of his father, thats when he started to look in the palantir. He slowly declined then when his wife Finduilas died, I do agree he rapidly declined when Boromir died. Denethor saw Boromir as Gondor's last hope when he died everything just went down hill, the true "breaking point" for me was when Faramir was wounded and he thought he was going to die, I think that was the point where it was just to much for Denethor to handle.

Gwaihir, yes PJ just love twisting around the characters. I agree Boromir would of never said "Gondor needs no king," through the whole journey Boromir wanted to have Aragorn come to Minas Tirith, and was content with the coming of the king to aid Gondor. Anything to help Gondor prevail was Boromir's concern, he was content with the sword coming back but he thought Gondor could only be saved if the ring was in his possession.

Denethor was a horrible father, but great man, and great commander. He was a good fighter and was wise in lore, much like his son Faramir. Thing wrong with Denethor was anyone who did not fight under his command he hated (perhaps the exclusion of Theoden, since Denethor put his hope into Rohan coming). You saw Beregond commit treason to save his loved captain Faramir, in the end Aragorn would of been restored king, I believe, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hi guys! Glad to see heated discussions beyond the Grave!

Hmm, Aragorn versus Denethor, huh? I place my bets on Aragorn!

But honestly, the theme of Kingship is so very often repeated that it is surprising that no-one sued for democracy yet. Take a look at the original Hobbit. Bard the Archer is the rightful king of Dale. Did he "executed" the other guy? No, he loaded the old man with dragon loot, which the latter promptly embezzled! Denethor is hardly a joker like the old man of Laketown, but Bard seems somewhat in character with Aragorn (Are they related?)

On the serious note, Denethor had the military under his fist. After Pelennor Fields, Aragorn could be credited with being one of the Captains that saved the day, but it is going to be pretty hard to prove his kingship over Gondor. Note: to the point of his death, his followers are still blindly following his orders. It might take a struggle to root him out...