why is it? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-09-2003, 07:35 PM

why is it that in the lord of the rings dawarfs are thrown aside.I would have like to seen JRRT add some more about dawrfs.

IMO at the battle of helms deep that pehaps some dawrfs form the iron hills show up and kill some orks(or is it orc's)

but i gess that was what the hobbit was for

later

Rochelle · 02-09-2003, 08:18 PM

It's true that not much was mentioned about dwarves, but I think Gimli was a good representation of their race. As for dwarves helping that Helms Deep...we'd have to ask J.R.R. Tolkein himself and he made no mention of them in The Two Towers...

burrahobbit · 02-09-2003, 08:24 PM

Why didn't he have Gwaihir fly the ring to Mount Doom?

There isn't much about the Dwarves because there weren't many Dwarves. No Dwarves from the Iron Hills came because the Iron Hills are very far away and they have nothing to do with Rohan.

Bill Ferny · 02-09-2003, 08:28 PM

Durin's Folk were a little too busy defending their homes against the scourge of Sauron in the north to bother themselves with a bunch of guys on smelly horses. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Phrim · 02-09-2003, 08:41 PM

Personally I'm glad Tolkien tried to stress realism over "coolness factor". Tolkien didn't include large armies of Dwarves or Elves in LOTR because of the political climate of the era. For him to throw all that out the window just to include different races that might appeal to some readers would have been a tragedy.

doug*platypus · 02-10-2003, 04:13 AM

True. LOTR was like the Missing Link, between the elf- and dwarf-filled world of The Silmarillion, and our own world. The Weird Races needed to be shown, but not very much, and as being in decline. Ents, Woses, Elves, Dwarves (but funnily enough, not Hobbits!) are shown as being in decline.

Although Gimli and Legolas later start up new realms, this is nothing compared to the number of elves leaving Middle-Earth, or to the fact that Moria and Gundabad are still not occupied. Even Erebor must be a pale comparison to Khazad-Dûm or to the original home of Dúrin.

Besides, Dwarves are the whole reason that Fanfics were invented!

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-10-2003, 04:20 AM

If you want more information on Dwarves then read 'the Hobbit'and 'Unfinshied Tales' and HoME 12:Of Dwarves and men"

.

Naldoriathil · 02-10-2003, 06:01 AM

Inderjit is very right. I have just read The Hobbit for the third time and it tells you loads to do with Dwarves. It is not in one section though, so you will have to read the whole book, but JRRT does give you more info about them in The Hobbit than in other works. Also the Appendices after ROTK are quite good.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Legolas · 02-10-2003, 01:40 PM

Because The Lord of the Rings is a historical account of the happenings of the final years of the Third Age as recorded by the hobbits. Hobbits are men, and were fascinated by elves.

Dwarves kept to themselves and their jewels underground.

The Iron Hills were too far from Rohan. The messenger from Rohan didn't even have the time to get there to ask their help, much less make it all the way back with an army of dwarves.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

02-15-2003, 05:10 PM

sorry didnt konw that the iron hills were so far away.(just looked at a map of ME)

02-15-2003, 06:27 PM

Well, the absence of dwarves, and the elves leaving Middle Earth, helped emphasise that it was "The Age of Men".

If you take it up a notch, and delve deeper into the idea of LotR being a book exploring human nature, you get the impression that humans alone have to take such responsibilities. Like in our own world, evil is created by men, and only men can protect us from it.

Or at least, thats a little of what I got from it.

Dain · 02-15-2003, 06:28 PM

I wish we had seen more dwarves in LotR, too, but when you think about it, they do go through Moria and meet a lot of dead dwarves...

No, it makes sense the way it was written (though PJ chose to have elves show up at helm's deep, why not dwarves, too?) Both Elves and Dwarves have their own battles--in Lorien and at the Lonely Mountain. In the appendix Tolkien has Gandalf say basically that without the victory at Dale the north could have been laid waste: "night in Rivendale" and "no Queen in Gondor" is how he puts it.

Thing about The Hobbit is, even though there is lots about Dwarves in it, the Hobbit has such a different tone to the LotR books that you wonder how much you could really take seriously--like their colourful outfits and all the instruments they bring with them. I mean, from this I guess we could assume that Dwarves are never far from their viols or flutes, yet Gimli never plays...

[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

GaladrieloftheOlden · 02-16-2003, 10:46 AM

Probably because Elves looked more effective and emphasized that the old alliances are not as dead as Theoden seems to think. And both an army of Elves AND an army of dwarves might seem too unrealistic.

02-16-2003, 11:25 AM

but didnt the elves show up in the movie to show that they were aslo fighting the shadow.then why not dawarfs.I have read the hobbit and the Appendices but i still want more *chants*we want dawarfs

Dain · 02-17-2003, 06:28 AM

*we want dwarves!*

Dwarves of the forums, unite!

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-17-2003, 08:19 AM

Plus the Dwarves were fighting their own war in Erebor.

Dain · 02-17-2003, 08:35 AM

As were the Elves in Lorien, no? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

02-09-2003, 07:35 PM	#1
king of the iron hills Guest Posts: n/a	why is it? why is it that in the lord of the rings dawarfs are thrown aside.I would have like to seen JRRT add some more about dawrfs. IMO at the battle of helms deep that pehaps some dawrfs form the iron hills show up and kill some orks(or is it orc's) but i gess that was what the hobbit was for later

02-09-2003, 08:18 PM	#2
Rochelle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Bonfire Glade RtR 80 miles Posts: 376	It's true that not much was mentioned about dwarves, but I think Gimli was a good representation of their race. As for dwarves helping that Helms Deep...we'd have to ask J.R.R. Tolkein himself and he made no mention of them in The Two Towers... __________________ Ad Astra Per Aspera (A rough road leads to the stars) "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens"

02-09-2003, 08:24 PM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Why didn't he have Gwaihir fly the ring to Mount Doom? There isn't much about the Dwarves because there weren't many Dwarves. No Dwarves from the Iron Hills came because the Iron Hills are very far away and they have nothing to do with Rohan. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-09-2003, 08:28 PM	#4
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Durin's Folk were a little too busy defending their homes against the scourge of Sauron in the north to bother themselves with a bunch of guys on smelly horses. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

02-10-2003, 04:13 AM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	True. LOTR was like the Missing Link, between the elf- and dwarf-filled world of The Silmarillion, and our own world. The Weird Races needed to be shown, but not very much, and as being in decline. Ents, Woses, Elves, Dwarves (but funnily enough, not Hobbits!) are shown as being in decline. Although Gimli and Legolas later start up new realms, this is nothing compared to the number of elves leaving Middle-Earth, or to the fact that Moria and Gundabad are still not occupied. Even Erebor must be a pale comparison to Khazad-Dûm or to the original home of Dúrin. Besides, Dwarves are the whole reason that Fanfics were invented! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

02-09-2003, 08:41 PM	#5
Phrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 72	Personally I'm glad Tolkien tried to stress realism over "coolness factor". Tolkien didn't include large armies of Dwarves or Elves in LOTR because of the political climate of the era. For him to throw all that out the window just to include different races that might appeal to some readers would have been a tragedy.

02-10-2003, 04:20 AM	#7
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	If you want more information on Dwarves then read 'the Hobbit'and 'Unfinshied Tales' and HoME 12:Of Dwarves and men" . __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-10-2003, 06:01 AM	#8
Naldoriathil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London Posts: 71	Inderjit is very right. I have just read The Hobbit for the third time and it tells you loads to do with Dwarves. It is not in one section though, so you will have to read the whole book, but JRRT does give you more info about them in The Hobbit than in other works. Also the Appendices after ROTK are quite good.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "He is Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Heir to the Throne of Gondor!"

02-10-2003, 01:40 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Because The Lord of the Rings is a historical account of the happenings of the final years of the Third Age as recorded by the hobbits. Hobbits are men, and were fascinated by elves. Dwarves kept to themselves and their jewels underground. The Iron Hills were too far from Rohan. The messenger from Rohan didn't even have the time to get there to ask their help, much less make it all the way back with an army of dwarves. [ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-15-2003, 05:10 PM	#10
king of the iron hills Guest Posts: n/a	sorry didnt konw that the iron hills were so far away.(just looked at a map of ME)

02-15-2003, 06:27 PM	#11
Maros An Doramor Guest Posts: n/a	Well, the absence of dwarves, and the elves leaving Middle Earth, helped emphasise that it was "The Age of Men". If you take it up a notch, and delve deeper into the idea of LotR being a book exploring human nature, you get the impression that humans alone have to take such responsibilities. Like in our own world, evil is created by men, and only men can protect us from it. Or at least, thats a little of what I got from it.

02-15-2003, 06:28 PM	#12
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	I wish we had seen more dwarves in LotR, too, but when you think about it, they do go through Moria and meet a lot of dead dwarves... No, it makes sense the way it was written (though PJ chose to have elves show up at helm's deep, why not dwarves, too?) Both Elves and Dwarves have their own battles--in Lorien and at the Lonely Mountain. In the appendix Tolkien has Gandalf say basically that without the victory at Dale the north could have been laid waste: "night in Rivendale" and "no Queen in Gondor" is how he puts it. Thing about The Hobbit is, even though there is lots about Dwarves in it, the Hobbit has such a different tone to the LotR books that you wonder how much you could really take seriously--like their colourful outfits and all the instruments they bring with them. I mean, from this I guess we could assume that Dwarves are never far from their viols or flutes, yet Gimli never plays... [ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ] __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

02-16-2003, 10:46 AM	#13
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	Probably because Elves looked more effective and emphasized that the old alliances are not as dead as Theoden seems to think. And both an army of Elves AND an army of dwarves might seem too unrealistic. __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

02-16-2003, 11:25 AM	#14
king of the iron hills Guest Posts: n/a	but didnt the elves show up in the movie to show that they were aslo fighting the shadow.then why not dawarfs.I have read the hobbit and the Appendices but i still want more chantswe want dawarfs

02-17-2003, 06:28 AM	#15
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	we want dwarves! Dwarves of the forums, unite! __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

02-17-2003, 08:19 AM	#16
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Plus the Dwarves were fighting their own war in Erebor. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-17-2003, 08:35 AM	#17
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	As were the Elves in Lorien, no? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.