Elves after Arda is Remade - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Joy · 09-02-2003, 12:56 AM

Melkor's 'permanence' is due to the fact that he has 'dissipated himself' in all of Arda. But then this would mean that in The Final Battle, when it is prophesised that he would be killed, all of Arda would have to be destroyed or else Melkor wouldn't perish completely. Then Arda will be fashioned again and Men will join in the new music.

What will happen to the Elves when Arda perishes? It is said their life span is that of Arda. Would they dissappear completely - and not exist even in fëa?

********
I know that I haven't been on in a while. Been out due to illness again and the fact that I am a mod on another board, and admin on another [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Also, I have been very busy this summer with the teens that I work with.

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Joy ]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 09-02-2003, 01:45 AM

We seem to be talking a lot about the Arda-Armageddon Last Battle recently...

No, I don't think so. 'Life-spans' are to do with hroa, the body; a Man's lifespan is threescore years and ten, rather longer these days of course, but that does not mean that the spirit of a Man ceases to exist after this period.

The body dies, the fea goes somewhere else. That the Elves' life is 'that of Arda' surely means than when Arda dies, they do as well, and are finally released from it -- as will the Valar and Maiar of Ea be. What exactly will happen is unknown, but I think the proposition that the race of Elves, the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar, shall merely cease to exist after Arda (while the Ainur and Men continue on) is quite an absurd one.

Findegil · 09-02-2003, 01:45 AM

That is of course not know. But Felagund suggested in The Atrabeth that the Elves would inhabit are remade while Man would help in its remaking by taking part in the second music. His belive was based on pure estel, that is the hope based on the belive that Iluvatars purposes for his children are good. Or so at last have I unserstood the text.

Respectfully
Findegil

Gwaihir the Windlord · 09-02-2003, 01:58 AM

In the Ainulindale, it says that both the Firstborn and the Followers shall participate in the Music (just the name of Children of Illuvatar is used). CT based this upon his father's latest version of this tale.

In earlier versions I believe that only 'Men' was said here; and it is also written, in both sources, that the post-Arda fate of the Elves is unkown.

As is the post-Arda fate of Men, and almost equally so, however; Shadowy references to the Second Music, as well as some brief conjecture, are all that we have. It could be anything, then... until it actually happens, of course, who knows -- except Eru himself?

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 09-02-2003, 04:22 AM

I like to think that what Finrod 'guessed' in the Athrabeth is what would happen to elves in Arda Remade:

Quote:

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and ding to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps'
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

Alakhriveion TMA · 09-02-2003, 05:09 PM

Well, The elves all live in Valinor, so they are less connected to Arda than before. Leaving Arda wasn't part of the Valar's original plan, but they did it due to the threat of Morgoth's remaining followers (Sauron comes to mind). So the elves will cease to exist when Valinor does, I suppose, but this might never happen.
But who am I to talk? It's all part of Illuvatar's plan. If he has one.

Lord of Angmar · 09-02-2003, 06:48 PM

The Elves will not be any more or less 'dead' than Men or Dwarves after the Last Battle.

I would hope that Tolkien's vision for after the Last Battle was the Unmarring of Arda and not the end of the world and of existence.

burrahobbit · 09-02-2003, 07:13 PM

What makes you say that?

Finwe · 09-02-2003, 09:19 PM

What I believe is that the reason the Elves look forward to the End of Days so much is not only for the complete destruction of Morgoth, but for their freedom. They had always envied Men, because their fëar were not bound to Arda, as the Elves' were. After the Dagor Dagorath, and the Destruction of Arda, I believe that the Elves' fëar would be freed from Arda, and join the fëar of Edain, in whatever Halls they walk, and there spend the rest of eternity in each others' company.

burrahobbit · 09-02-2003, 09:38 PM

I believe that I would like an ice cream sandwich.

I also like to think that I would like an ice cream sandwich.

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Lush · 09-02-2003, 10:28 PM

BURRA

Git back in your cell! Don't make me get the hose!

No, really, Tolkien himself was pretty ambiguous on the subject. He preferred it to be a mystery.

[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 09-03-2003, 01:45 AM

As it should be. Describing the Dagor Dagorath and the rebuilding of Arda would be far too comprehensive; nowhere is it stated what will happen, and you cannot 'believe' that any specific outcome will take place. That's the mystery of it.

We don't know what will cause the Dagor Dagorath, what will happen after it, nor the ultimate fates of Elves and Men. The vague conviction that these things will happen in some form is all. But who knows it? You'll just have to wait and see... =]

(Burrahobbit has quite a legitimate argument, by the way, get him to explain it to you sometime and you'll agree [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

Lush · 09-03-2003, 10:49 PM

Oh, Gwaihir, I'd never underestimate burra. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Nevertheless, this topic seems to have run its course.

Joy · 06-04-2004, 03:19 PM

Wow, I had forgotten about many of these old posts. I look back an cringe at some of them.

Thanks for your answers guys.

Lachwen · 06-04-2004, 06:01 PM

Actually...this is dealt with in The Lost Road and Other Writings, at the end of the section describing (though not in great detail) the Last Battle:

Quote:

…Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be leveled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them.

So it sounds to me like all the Elves there ever were have, basically, a huge honkin’ party. Now, I don’t know what is meant by “the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them.” What do you guys think it means?

Son of Númenor · 06-04-2004, 07:47 PM

Quote:

What do you guys think it means?

One can only speculate, & I will not venture a guess at what the ultimate purpose of an entire race might be. We must keep in mind that in the mythology of Middle-earth as it was intended by Tolkien, the Last Battle has yet to come. We are in the Seventh Age of the world, but there is no telling how many more will come before Arda is "broken & remade." Tolkien tended to shy away from revealing any Higher Purpose of the Creator (i.e. The Fate of Men), since it would probably lead many to draw inaccurate & unwanted conclusions about Tolkien's beliefs concerning the Christian God.

HerenIstarion · 06-12-2004, 02:35 PM

Maybe you'd like a look at this

09-02-2003, 12:56 AM	#1
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Elves after Arda is Remade Melkor's 'permanence' is due to the fact that he has 'dissipated himself' in all of Arda. But then this would mean that in The Final Battle, when it is prophesised that he would be killed, all of Arda would have to be destroyed or else Melkor wouldn't perish completely. Then Arda will be fashioned again and Men will join in the new music. What will happen to the Elves when Arda perishes? It is said their life span is that of Arda. Would they dissappear completely - and not exist even in fëa? ******** I know that I haven't been on in a while. Been out due to illness again and the fact that I am a mod on another board, and admin on another [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Also, I have been very busy this summer with the teens that I work with. [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Joy ] __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

09-02-2003, 05:09 PM	#6
Alakhriveion TMA Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12	Well, The elves all live in Valinor, so they are less connected to Arda than before. Leaving Arda wasn't part of the Valar's original plan, but they did it due to the threat of Morgoth's remaining followers (Sauron comes to mind). So the elves will cease to exist when Valinor does, I suppose, but this might never happen. But who am I to talk? It's all part of Illuvatar's plan. If he has one. __________________ This message sent to you on the fins of the ferrets of Morgoth. and Bill Gates is Evil!!!

09-02-2003, 06:48 PM	#7
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	The Elves will not be any more or less 'dead' than Men or Dwarves after the Last Battle. I would hope that Tolkien's vision for after the Last Battle was the Unmarring of Arda and not the end of the world and of existence. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-02-2003, 07:13 PM	#8
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	What makes you say that? __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

09-02-2003, 09:19 PM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	What I believe is that the reason the Elves look forward to the End of Days so much is not only for the complete destruction of Morgoth, but for their freedom. They had always envied Men, because their fëar were not bound to Arda, as the Elves' were. After the Dagor Dagorath, and the Destruction of Arda, I believe that the Elves' fëar would be freed from Arda, and join the fëar of Edain, in whatever Halls they walk, and there spend the rest of eternity in each others' company. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-02-2003, 01:45 AM	#2
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	We seem to be talking a lot about the Arda-Armageddon Last Battle recently... No, I don't think so. 'Life-spans' are to do with hroa, the body; a Man's lifespan is threescore years and ten, rather longer these days of course, but that does not mean that the spirit of a Man ceases to exist after this period. The body dies, the fea goes somewhere else. That the Elves' life is 'that of Arda' surely means than when Arda dies, they do as well, and are finally released from it -- as will the Valar and Maiar of Ea be. What exactly will happen is unknown, but I think the proposition that the race of Elves, the Firstborn Children of Illuvatar, shall merely cease to exist after Arda (while the Ainur and Men continue on) is quite an absurd one.

09-02-2003, 01:45 AM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	That is of course not know. But Felagund suggested in The Atrabeth that the Elves would inhabit are remade while Man would help in its remaking by taking part in the second music. His belive was based on pure estel, that is the hope based on the belive that Iluvatars purposes for his children are good. Or so at last have I unserstood the text. Respectfully Findegil

09-02-2003, 01:58 AM	#4
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	In the Ainulindale, it says that both the Firstborn and the Followers shall participate in the Music (just the name of Children of Illuvatar is used). CT based this upon his father's latest version of this tale. In earlier versions I believe that only 'Men' was said here; and it is also written, in both sources, that the post-Arda fate of the Elves is unkown. As is the post-Arda fate of Men, and almost equally so, however; Shadowy references to the Second Music, as well as some brief conjecture, are all that we have. It could be anything, then... until it actually happens, of course, who knows -- except Eru himself? [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

09-02-2003, 09:38 PM	#10
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	I believe that I would like an ice cream sandwich. I also like to think that I would like an ice cream sandwich. [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

09-02-2003, 10:28 PM	#11
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	BURRA Git back in your cell! Don't make me get the hose! No, really, Tolkien himself was pretty ambiguous on the subject. He preferred it to be a mystery. [ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

09-03-2003, 01:45 AM	#12
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	As it should be. Describing the Dagor Dagorath and the rebuilding of Arda would be far too comprehensive; nowhere is it stated what will happen, and you cannot 'believe' that any specific outcome will take place. That's the mystery of it. We don't know what will cause the Dagor Dagorath, what will happen after it, nor the ultimate fates of Elves and Men. The vague conviction that these things will happen in some form is all. But who knows it? You'll just have to wait and see... =] (Burrahobbit has quite a legitimate argument, by the way, get him to explain it to you sometime and you'll agree [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) [ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

09-03-2003, 10:49 PM	#13
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Oh, Gwaihir, I'd never underestimate burra. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Nevertheless, this topic seems to have run its course. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

06-04-2004, 03:19 PM	#14
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Wow, I had forgotten about many of these old posts. I look back an cringe at some of them. Thanks for your answers guys. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

06-12-2004, 02:35 PM	#17
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Maybe you'd like a look at this __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!