Mirkwood Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 02:07 PM

There's a question I've been wondering for a long time, but I'm not sure if anyone has discussed it...were the Mirkwood Elves of the Nandor, Laiquendi, or Avari?

Meela · 08-04-2003, 02:22 PM

It says they were Silvan elves, and Teleri, but it also says that the Teleri are descended from the Sindar and the Nandor.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 02:34 PM

So they were Eldar?

Meela · 08-04-2003, 02:36 PM

Yeh, I suppose. The Teleri were one division of the Eldar, but the Nandor were a sub-division, so maybe the Mirkwood elves are just descendants of the Eldar, in a way.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 02:40 PM

So what's their story? Did Tolkien give them a purpose? A reason for their existence? [I really need to get the complete Tolkien collection...]

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Meela · 08-04-2003, 02:42 PM

This is what I found under Mirkwood elves. It gives a bit of info:

In Appendix B of the The Lord of the Rings, we're told that the early Second Age saw the migration of many of the Sindar from Lindon, and that some of these travellers founded forest-realms. We're also told explicitly that 'Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great [Mirkwood], was one of these.' However, there are accounts in Unfinished Tales of an earlier king of the Elves of Mirkwood, Thranduil's father Oropher, who was lost in the War of the Last Alliance. These accounts can be reconciled if we imagine Thranduil travelling east from Lindon with Oropher, helping to found a kingdom in Greenwood the Great, but not in fact becoming its king until the death of his father more than two thousand years later.
2 The Wood-elves were limited to the northeastern parts of the forest at the end of the Second Age, but this had not always been the case. Their realm was originally founded on and around the hill of Amon Lanc, in the south of the forest. The Elves moved northward at least four times in their history, at first to move away from the influence of Khazad-dûm and Lórien. In the Third Age, Sauron came to their old home of Amon Lanc and built Dol Guldur there, and Thranduil was forced to lead his people from their then home in the Mountains of Mirkwood to the far north of the wood, where he delved an underground fortress.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 02:51 PM

That's something new...so they would have had to be Laiquendi...guess I'll have to read the Appendix again...and check out Unfinished Tales...thank you...let me know if you find anything else...

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Nils · 08-04-2003, 02:55 PM

I found this in The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Appendix of Languages, pg 79

Quote:

For there were other Elves of various kind in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading into fastnesses of the woods and hills, as Men usurped the lands. Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter nothing appears in this book, and of many Elvish name s ofpersons or of places are used most are of Grey-elven form.

According to this, most of the Elves in Mirkwood (Greenwood the Great) were Avari (Eastern Elves).

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 03:04 PM

conflicting stories...so we're going to have to find more quotes...wonderful... [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

Nils · 08-04-2003, 03:08 PM

I don't think they conflict at all. You have more than one kind of Elf living in the Mirkwood. The Sindar were more advanced, so even though there were fewer of them, they were the ones who became the leaders.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 03:21 PM

Now I'm just confused...the Eldar and the Avari were not the same...

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Nils · 08-04-2003, 03:26 PM

They are the same race. The Eldar and Avari could and did live together and most probably intermarried. Not all who went on the Great Journey made it to the Blessed Land and some that did came back. After the destruction of Beleriand, the Eldar who remained in Middle-earth were forced to migrate East into the land of the Avari. The Eldar were fewer in number, but much more advanced, especially when it came to fighting wars.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Not all who went on the Great Journey made it to the Blessed Land and some that did came back.

I know...so the Elves of Greenwood the Great were a mix of the Avari and all three branches of the Teleri...what clasification would they be under? Calaquendi or Moriquendi?

Nils · 08-04-2003, 03:40 PM

Since both Sindar and Avari are Moriquendi, I'd say they were Moriquendi. As far as I know, the only way Mirkwood could contain Calaquendi would be if some of the Noldor came with the Sindar.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 03:46 PM

Again, I will quote: you said

Quote:

Not all who went on the Great Journey made it to the Blessed Land and some that did came back.

Weren't you talking about the Teleri? That is what I meant by "all three branches"...I think I should give this up...it's going in rings...

Nils · 08-04-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Weren't you talking about the Teleri?

I was talking about both the Noldor and Teleri. All of the Teleri in Middle-earth are Moriquendi. The only group of Elves to return to Middle-earth after making it to the Blessed Lands are the Noldor. Therefore the only Calaquendi in Middle-earth are the Noldor who rebelled.

You asked

Quote:

what clasification would they be under? Calaquendi or Moriquendi?

Moriquendi.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

Silver Dragon · 08-05-2003, 12:16 PM

Okay, thanks!

mark12_30 · 04-07-2004, 10:51 AM

Check this out:
QUENDI

I believe it will help you a great deal.

Grace and paece, --mark12_30

08-04-2003, 02:07 PM	#1
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Mirkwood Elves There's a question I've been wondering for a long time, but I'm not sure if anyone has discussed it...were the Mirkwood Elves of the Nandor, Laiquendi, or Avari? __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 02:22 PM	#2
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	It says they were Silvan elves, and Teleri, but it also says that the Teleri are descended from the Sindar and the Nandor. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

08-04-2003, 02:34 PM	#3
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	So they were Eldar? __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 02:36 PM	#4
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Yeh, I suppose. The Teleri were one division of the Eldar, but the Nandor were a sub-division, so maybe the Mirkwood elves are just descendants of the Eldar, in a way. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

08-04-2003, 02:40 PM	#5
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	So what's their story? Did Tolkien give them a purpose? A reason for their existence? [I really need to get the complete Tolkien collection...] [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 02:42 PM	#6
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	This is what I found under Mirkwood elves. It gives a bit of info: In Appendix B of the The Lord of the Rings, we're told that the early Second Age saw the migration of many of the Sindar from Lindon, and that some of these travellers founded forest-realms. We're also told explicitly that 'Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great [Mirkwood], was one of these.' However, there are accounts in Unfinished Tales of an earlier king of the Elves of Mirkwood, Thranduil's father Oropher, who was lost in the War of the Last Alliance. These accounts can be reconciled if we imagine Thranduil travelling east from Lindon with Oropher, helping to found a kingdom in Greenwood the Great, but not in fact becoming its king until the death of his father more than two thousand years later. 2 The Wood-elves were limited to the northeastern parts of the forest at the end of the Second Age, but this had not always been the case. Their realm was originally founded on and around the hill of Amon Lanc, in the south of the forest. The Elves moved northward at least four times in their history, at first to move away from the influence of Khazad-dûm and Lórien. In the Third Age, Sauron came to their old home of Amon Lanc and built Dol Guldur there, and Thranduil was forced to lead his people from their then home in the Mountains of Mirkwood to the far north of the wood, where he delved an underground fortress. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

08-04-2003, 02:51 PM	#7
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	That's something new...so they would have had to be Laiquendi...guess I'll have to read the Appendix again...and check out Unfinished Tales...thank you...let me know if you find anything else... [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 03:04 PM	#9
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	conflicting stories...so we're going to have to find more quotes...wonderful... [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 03:08 PM	#10
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	I don't think they conflict at all. You have more than one kind of Elf living in the Mirkwood. The Sindar were more advanced, so even though there were fewer of them, they were the ones who became the leaders. [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ] __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-04-2003, 03:21 PM	#11
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Now I'm just confused...the Eldar and the Avari were not the same... [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 03:26 PM	#12
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	They are the same race. The Eldar and Avari could and did live together and most probably intermarried. Not all who went on the Great Journey made it to the Blessed Land and some that did came back. After the destruction of Beleriand, the Eldar who remained in Middle-earth were forced to migrate East into the land of the Avari. The Eldar were fewer in number, but much more advanced, especially when it came to fighting wars. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-04-2003, 03:40 PM	#14
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	Since both Sindar and Avari are Moriquendi, I'd say they were Moriquendi. As far as I know, the only way Mirkwood could contain Calaquendi would be if some of the Noldor came with the Sindar. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-05-2003, 12:16 PM	#17
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Okay, thanks! __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

04-07-2004, 10:51 AM	#18
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Check this out: QUENDI I believe it will help you a great deal. Grace and paece, --mark12_30 __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.