Is Thranduil actually Daeron?

[Gryphon Hall]

When I read The Hobbit, I was amused by the character of the Elven King. Since I have read the Hobbit long after the Lord of the Rings, I already knew the Elven King was named Thranduil and that he was Legolas' dad. So amused was I and more than a bit impressed (he was supposedly the Elves greatest king according to The Hobbit) that I thought he was a character of note in The Silmarillion.

Of course, he is nowhere to be found in The Silmarillion; at least in the way I expected. His description as "the greatest king" could, of course, have referred only to the Silvan Elves, not to the Eldar or the High Elves of the West. However, his realm was more long-lived than any realm established by the Noldor, and much larger in scope than the refuges of Rivendell and Lothlorien. Thranduil and his people, according to "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age" his people kept at bay the evil in Mirkwood, and he certainly did not have any Ring of Power to help him, just his own wisdom or magic.

So, he may not have been greater than Galadriel or Elrond, but he WAS great. According to Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth, he was a Sindarin elf and once lived in Lindon. Some sources I read somewhere even mention that he was at Doriath at one time. Someone as notable as him should have been mentioned more; someone as old as him (I mean, he supposedly lived in Beleriand, too) should have at least taken part in The Last Alliance of Elves and Men. But he isn't. He suddenly appears out of history as someone already great.

I have been speculating that maybe, just maybe, he WAS mentioned, but under a different name in The Silmarillion. He must have been at least some Sindarin prince of great power. But one unaccounted for elf comes to mind, one who was left alive after the Wars of Beleriand but was never mentioned hereafter: Daeron. It was Daeron who also loved Luthien and composed songs for her. He betrayed Beren and Luthien, but innocently, so he was not evil.

. . . . And it is told that in tht time Daeron the minstrel fo Thingol strayed from the land, and was seen no more. He it was that made music for the dance and song of Luthien, before Beren came to Doriath; and he had loved her, and set all his thought of her in his music. He became the greatest of all the minstrels of the Elves east of the Sea, named even before Maglor son of Feanor. But seeking for Luthien in despair he wandered upon strange paths, and passing over the mountains he came into the East of Middle-earth, where for many ages he made lament beside dark waters for Luthien, daughter of Thingol, most beautiful of living things.
<div align=right>from Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion</div>

"Dark Waters"? The only other reference to dark waters were made in The Hobbit, when Thorin and company reached the borders of Thranduil's realm.

My suspicions are obvious: Daeron became Thranduil. Only he had the lore and the power to command the respect of the fleeing Sindar to become their king and to protect them. His association with the dwarves may have accounted for Thranduil's legendary love for jewels, or for his suspicion of them (remember the dwarves of Nogrod and what they did). Also accounts for Legolas' reverence for any descendant of Luthien.

Of course, as this is speculation and I have not made a really thorough search, I may be wrong and mistaken. Please tell me what you think. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

I don't think there is good evidence to assume they are the same, but it may well be that the image of Dairon, especially as in the Lay of Leithian, influenced the image of the Elven-King in the Hobbit.

Passages such as "and in the branches of an oak, / or seated on the beech-leaves brown, / Dairon the dark with ferny crown / played with bewildering wizard's art" (HoME III, iii)

"Dairon she found with ferny crown / silently sitting on beech-leaves brown" (ibid.)

seem to echo the appearance of Thranduil.
There is also a note to the Lay which mentions that Dairon wandered [to the forests in] the east [and south].

I suppose there may have been a connection in the origin of the literary characters, therefore, anything else would be too vague and unfounded speculation.

[Frodo Baggins]

Some people say that Thranduil lived with Elww Thingol and that his halls in Mirkwood were inspired by Menegroth, the Thousand Caves.

[Birdland]

Tolkien neglected Legolas' branch of the family terribly, it seems. There is some contradictions between the appendix of LoTR and Tolkien's other writings in Unfinished Tales.

It has been stated that Thranduil was the son of Oropher, the original King of Greenwood the Great, who was slain at the Battle of the Last Alliance. I had always believed that Thranduil was there with his father as well, and it was after Oropher's death that he became the King of The Greenwood, (later Mirkwood.)

There was a wonderful little snippet in Unfinished Tales, tellling of Oropher's hasty, ill-equipped charge against the gates of Mordor, his death, and how the experience scarred Thranduil for his long life. It's on pages 258-259 of Unfinished Tales

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes, but would Thranduil, if he is indeed Daeron, fall in love with ms. Thranduil (hence legolas, there were no test tube babies in those days) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I mean he loved Luthien a lot.

[Galorme]

Elves can have two loves Inderjit, think about Finwe. And did he love Luthien in that way? I got the impression it wasn't that kind of love, more a brotherly love. Plus originally wasn't he her brother (as in the earlier stories), so any sexual feelings must have been introduced later (I hope).

Yeah but I don't think that Daeron and Thranduil are one and the same. They were in Doriath at the same time were they not?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes, but I thought Daeron went to the far east? And why the name change? Thranduil was also the son of Oropher, who was slain in the Last Alliance and Thranduil led his army back to Mirkwood, though they were not attacked by the host of Orcs that assailed Isildur, becuase they had too many people.

[Gryphon Hall]

If Thranduil isn't Daeron, does anyone think it is Oropher? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Sorry, I know the odds against Thranduil actually being Daeron, especially with all the posts to help; but I have always wondered what happened to Daeron. If Daeron isn't Thranduil, who and where is he?

The images of the Elvenking of Greenwood the Great and that of Daeron in the Lay of Leithian is just too similar. What about Oropher being Daeron? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Name changes shouldn't be a problem, I mean, there is precedent: Fingon to Felagund, Elwe to Thingol, Turin to Mormegil, etc.

Please remember that I know nothing and I am hoping for the some enlightenment from the people of this most excellent Barrow-downs.

Pax.

[engwaalphiel]

As with legolas the history of this particular branch is somewhat sketchy !

Tolkien neglected Legolas' branch of the family terribly, it seems. There is some contradictions between the appendix of LoTR and Tolkien's other writings in Unfinished Tales.

I suppose it was tolkien just expanding and finding HIS way around the different aspects of family trees so he made contradictions (it also gives us many interesting posts)
I couldn't attempt an answer to the original question although i would doubt it. We never knew what the prof. was thinkin [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mattius]

There was a wonderful little snippet in Unfinished Tales, tellling of Oropher's hasty, ill-equipped charge against the gates of Mordor, his death, and how the experience scarred Thranduil for his long life. It's on pages 258-259 of Unfinished Tales

I have Unfinished Tales but I must have a different edition to yourself. By any chance could you tell me the chapter it is in etc.

Thanks!

Matt

[Birdland]

Mattius - it is in Chapter IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn: Appendix B: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves."

If you look in the index in the back, there are several listings for Thranduil, but this one reference had the most details.

[Legolas]

Appendix B: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves