Tolkien and modern fantasy - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lady Of Light · 07-30-2003, 06:52 PM

I was wondering what your (gestures vaguely at computer screen) opinion is about modern fantasy. Has Tolkien "ruined" all of the books for you because it's just so good? It seems to me like all fantasy writers are worried about this, yet I have not met someone who truly despises the rest of the genre because LOTR blows all of the new books out of the water.
It's just a thought, but I'd really like to hear about this.
In my opinion, Tolkien is a genre all of its own. I call it historical fantasy (clever, isn't it?) So I never compare any fantasy to Tolkien. While it may not have the same amazing scale and emotional weight, it can still be excellent. Any thoughts? Or am I just ranting?

Imladrien · 07-30-2003, 07:34 PM

I had a long interval once of approximately 10 years between readings of Tolkien. During that time I read voraciously: Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthony,and a bunch of others. Three years ago, I picked up Tolkien again. I tried to re-read "On a Pale Horse" by Piers Anthony, but, couldn't finish it, didn't read Ann McCaffrey's latest Pern or any of her other books that have been published in the last three or so years. The only one I have been able to re-read and enjoy is "Mists of Avalon" by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I'm sure there are other "Arthurian" books that I might enjoy, if I would take the time to read them. So, I'd say that for the last three years, Tolkien has nearly ruined me for other fantasy. But, I'm not complaining!
--Imladrien
Reading Tolkien's Middle-earth

Imladris · 07-30-2003, 09:00 PM

I wouldn't say that Tolkien has ruined the genre of fantasy at all because there are some fantasies that are good. I tend to stay away from the modern fantasy because I don't really want to get involved with witchcraft or any other questionable material in there. However, I can honestly say that the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander (and other books by Lloyd Alexander) and the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S Lewis are excellent.

By the by, I like that you consider Tolkien as historical fantasy. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Horse-Maiden of the Shire · 07-30-2003, 10:48 PM

Historical fantasy. Lovely. Well, I can't say that Tolkien has ruined all fantasy for me, but whenever I read fantasy now, I pick up on the slightest relation to Tolkien and compare it to a scene in the book. That leaves me helpless to concentrate on the book that I'm reading and it goes in one ear and out the other, all because I'm picking out bits of Tolkien relation.

Phervasaion · 07-31-2003, 04:52 AM

Tolkein definatly hasnt ruined fantasy for me as it it is my favorite reading (and film) genre. Even though i consider LotR to be one of the best fantasy books there is i still believe that other fantasy books are very good.

Meela · 07-31-2003, 07:35 AM

I never saw Lord Of The Rings as a particularly special book. I've always enjoyed fantasy, particularly faery stories and tales such as the Brothers Grimm. Lotr influenced me a little, but probably only because it highlighted similarities or influences from other fantasy, especially mythological stories.

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 07-31-2003, 07:39 AM

It is thanks to Tolkien I began enjoying the fantasy genre. For example, "The Wheel of Time" saga by Rober Jordan is very good, but only if one enjoys a loooooong read [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Of course, I can't stop drawing parallels, but that's something I have to live with. There are, of course, some fantasy books nothing like Tolkiens, but that's mostly military fantasy, which I enjoy.

-Aredhel

Tinuviel of Denton · 07-31-2003, 08:56 AM

After reading most of the posts on this thread, I find that I seem to be alone. I read any fantasy and I never compare it to anyone else. I can read a few chapters in FotR, then go to another room and pick up Mercedes Lackey and not compare the two at all. I'm just as into the modern fantasy as I am into Tolkien (only I don't spend hours on Valdemar-related websites [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ).

However, the fantasy I read seems dependant on mood. I don't pick up Xanth when I want depth, I pick up the Silm or some other high fantasy book (like WOT or Moontide and Magic Rise).

And I guess that's all I have to say. So far.

Imladris · 07-31-2003, 09:10 AM

Fanasy is a wide genre. There's depth (Tolkien and Alexander), "candy" (Piers Anthony), and the allegory would be Narnia. And there are so many more facets that couldn't even begin to count. I don't think Tolkien wanted to monopolize the fantasy genre, he just wanted to add to it and make it better, if you will.

I think that Tinuviel said it perfectly; I just want to let her know that she is not alone because I am like her as well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Finwe · 07-31-2003, 09:58 AM

I don't think that Tolkien has particularly ruined fantasy for me, because I still enjoy reading books by other authors. For example, Mercedes Lackey is my next favorite author, other than Tolkien, and currently, I am engaged in the book "The Magician" by Raymond E. Feist. Of course, while I was reading it, I started choking because the Elves are almost exactly like Tolkien's Elves (in having a long lifespan), they even go to the Blessed Isles when they die, they have incredible skills with animals and woodcraft, and the Dark Elves, the enemies of the good Elves, are called "moredhel." I don't know about you, but I would definitely call that copying.

purplefluffychainsaw · 07-31-2003, 10:23 AM

I've only been reading Tolkien since tyhe films came out (But I difinatly pefere the books.) so a lot of the fantasy books I've read were from before I knew them and I still have my old opinions on a lot of them. But I don't compare Tolkien's works to most things becuase they are a different writer. It's okay to capare Tolkien works to other Tolkien books but if I, for exaple, compared Tolkien's works with Catherine Webb's that wouldn't work becuase she is completely different to him so she writes, and her books are in, a completly different style

Lord of Angmar · 07-31-2003, 11:31 AM

I, for one, cannot help but comparing modern fantasy with Tolkien's works. I cannot find any tales that even remotely compare to the Professor's works. I take pleasure in reading the classics, works by Dickens, Shakespeare, Homer, Dante, Hugo, Thoreau and Melville. The only other works of "fantasy" that I really dabble in are the Silent Planet books by CS Lewis, the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan and a few select others. Tolkien is certainly the author whose works I most enjoy out of all of these. The depth and richness of character, story and world never cease to dazzle me. My favorite contemporary author is Michael Crichton, but of course I do not compare his works to those of the Professor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sirithheruwen · 08-01-2003, 07:25 AM

Historical fantasy. Perfect description!

It has ruined some, fantasy, but not all. Soem books have a totally different plot, but is still fantasy, and those are okay. But any books that have a king returning to the throne or anything like that is totally impossible to concentrate on.

william · 08-02-2003, 08:02 PM

hey didnt the guy reintroduce the genre to begin with (if im wrong shoot me) i mean without this guy many of the writers today wouldnt be writing and even though other works pale in comparison they are better considering what you are looking for. lets admit the fact that Anne McCaffery Pern serries is much more scientific in its fantasy than tolkien but at the same time does not leave as much room for the fascinating debates like the ones on this forum it is all according to your taste and mine is multi-faceted so i need other books to supplement my tolkien diet.

Frodo Baggins · 08-02-2003, 08:34 PM

Well I haven't read much fantasy aside from things by Tolkien. I do draw lots of parallels when I am reading other fantasy, but then, I draw parallels between LOTR and almost anything else anyway. As far as I am concerned, Tolkien's writing are deeper, wider, and all aroung bigger than any other fantasy, on a plain by itself. In fact, he is only matched by one other person, C.S. Lewis. If you want to read something that is as wide and full and beautiful as Middle-earth, read C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy which consists of "Out of the Silent Planet" "Perelandra" and "That Hideous Strength".

08-06-2003, 03:26 PM

There's no question in my mind that Tolkien is the archetype of fantasy. All the fantasy I've read is based on him and/or is highly influenced by him.

Evisse the Blue · 08-10-2003, 01:12 PM

After reading Tolkien I tried to read other fantasy books and found them all too dull for words. So, either I am simply not enjoying the genre, and Tolkien is the exception, or I simply happened to pick the wrong books.
I enjoy fairy tales very much though. And I like Harry Potter a lot. Does 'The Last Unicorn' by Peter Beagle belong to the 'fantasy' genre? It is very tolkienish, don't you think?

07-30-2003, 06:52 PM	#1
Lady Of Light Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: VA Posts: 26	Tolkien and modern fantasy I was wondering what your (gestures vaguely at computer screen) opinion is about modern fantasy. Has Tolkien "ruined" all of the books for you because it's just so good? It seems to me like all fantasy writers are worried about this, yet I have not met someone who truly despises the rest of the genre because LOTR blows all of the new books out of the water. It's just a thought, but I'd really like to hear about this. In my opinion, Tolkien is a genre all of its own. I call it historical fantasy (clever, isn't it?) So I never compare any fantasy to Tolkien. While it may not have the same amazing scale and emotional weight, it can still be excellent. Any thoughts? Or am I just ranting? __________________ The knight looked to her with reproval, and she laughed, and he could not help but join in.

07-30-2003, 09:00 PM	#3
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	I wouldn't say that Tolkien has ruined the genre of fantasy at all because there are some fantasies that are good. I tend to stay away from the modern fantasy because I don't really want to get involved with witchcraft or any other questionable material in there. However, I can honestly say that the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander (and other books by Lloyd Alexander) and the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S Lewis are excellent. By the by, I like that you consider Tolkien as historical fantasy. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

07-30-2003, 10:48 PM	#4
Horse-Maiden of the Shire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chillaxin' with Glorfindel-441 miles on the RtR Posts: 1,197	Historical fantasy. Lovely. Well, I can't say that Tolkien has ruined all fantasy for me, but whenever I read fantasy now, I pick up on the slightest relation to Tolkien and compare it to a scene in the book. That leaves me helpless to concentrate on the book that I'm reading and it goes in one ear and out the other, all because I'm picking out bits of Tolkien relation. __________________ "There's a big...machine in the sky...some kind of electric snake...coming straight at us." "Shoot it," said my attorney. "Not yet...I want to study its habits."

07-31-2003, 04:52 AM	#5
Phervasaion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth Posts: 306	Tolkein definatly hasnt ruined fantasy for me as it it is my favorite reading (and film) genre. Even though i consider LotR to be one of the best fantasy books there is i still believe that other fantasy books are very good. __________________ Phervasaion

07-31-2003, 07:35 AM	#6
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	I never saw Lord Of The Rings as a particularly special book. I've always enjoyed fantasy, particularly faery stories and tales such as the Brothers Grimm. Lotr influenced me a little, but probably only because it highlighted similarities or influences from other fantasy, especially mythological stories. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard. Last edited by Meela; 11-27-2004 at 07:00 AM.

07-30-2003, 07:34 PM	#2
Imladrien Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 21	I had a long interval once of approximately 10 years between readings of Tolkien. During that time I read voraciously: Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthony,and a bunch of others. Three years ago, I picked up Tolkien again. I tried to re-read "On a Pale Horse" by Piers Anthony, but, couldn't finish it, didn't read Ann McCaffrey's latest Pern or any of her other books that have been published in the last three or so years. The only one I have been able to re-read and enjoy is "Mists of Avalon" by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I'm sure there are other "Arthurian" books that I might enjoy, if I would take the time to read them. So, I'd say that for the last three years, Tolkien has nearly ruined me for other fantasy. But, I'm not complaining! --Imladrien Reading Tolkien's Middle-earth

07-31-2003, 07:39 AM	#7
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	It is thanks to Tolkien I began enjoying the fantasy genre. For example, "The Wheel of Time" saga by Rober Jordan is very good, but only if one enjoys a loooooong read [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Of course, I can't stop drawing parallels, but that's something I have to live with. There are, of course, some fantasy books nothing like Tolkiens, but that's mostly military fantasy, which I enjoy. -Aredhel __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

07-31-2003, 08:56 AM	#8
Tinuviel of Denton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amid the hills and dales of the Shire... or not. Posts: 579	After reading most of the posts on this thread, I find that I seem to be alone. I read any fantasy and I never compare it to anyone else. I can read a few chapters in FotR, then go to another room and pick up Mercedes Lackey and not compare the two at all. I'm just as into the modern fantasy as I am into Tolkien (only I don't spend hours on Valdemar-related websites [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ). However, the fantasy I read seems dependant on mood. I don't pick up Xanth when I want depth, I pick up the Silm or some other high fantasy book (like WOT or Moontide and Magic Rise). And I guess that's all I have to say. So far.

07-31-2003, 09:10 AM	#9
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	Fanasy is a wide genre. There's depth (Tolkien and Alexander), "candy" (Piers Anthony), and the allegory would be Narnia. And there are so many more facets that couldn't even begin to count. I don't think Tolkien wanted to monopolize the fantasy genre, he just wanted to add to it and make it better, if you will. I think that Tinuviel said it perfectly; I just want to let her know that she is not alone because I am like her as well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

07-31-2003, 09:58 AM	#10
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Tolkien has particularly ruined fantasy for me, because I still enjoy reading books by other authors. For example, Mercedes Lackey is my next favorite author, other than Tolkien, and currently, I am engaged in the book "The Magician" by Raymond E. Feist. Of course, while I was reading it, I started choking because the Elves are almost exactly like Tolkien's Elves (in having a long lifespan), they even go to the Blessed Isles when they die, they have incredible skills with animals and woodcraft, and the Dark Elves, the enemies of the good Elves, are called "moredhel." I don't know about you, but I would definitely call that copying. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-31-2003, 10:23 AM	#11
purplefluffychainsaw Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a very cold place.... Posts: 162	I've only been reading Tolkien since tyhe films came out (But I difinatly pefere the books.) so a lot of the fantasy books I've read were from before I knew them and I still have my old opinions on a lot of them. But I don't compare Tolkien's works to most things becuase they are a different writer. It's okay to capare Tolkien works to other Tolkien books but if I, for exaple, compared Tolkien's works with Catherine Webb's that wouldn't work becuase she is completely different to him so she writes, and her books are in, a completly different style __________________ Love, Drugs and Fairy Boys ~ SAM

07-31-2003, 11:31 AM	#12
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I, for one, cannot help but comparing modern fantasy with Tolkien's works. I cannot find any tales that even remotely compare to the Professor's works. I take pleasure in reading the classics, works by Dickens, Shakespeare, Homer, Dante, Hugo, Thoreau and Melville. The only other works of "fantasy" that I really dabble in are the Silent Planet books by CS Lewis, the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan and a few select others. Tolkien is certainly the author whose works I most enjoy out of all of these. The depth and richness of character, story and world never cease to dazzle me. My favorite contemporary author is Michael Crichton, but of course I do not compare his works to those of the Professor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-01-2003, 07:25 AM	#13
Sirithheruwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wind's Road Posts: 467	Historical fantasy. Perfect description! It has ruined some, fantasy, but not all. Soem books have a totally different plot, but is still fantasy, and those are okay. But any books that have a king returning to the throne or anything like that is totally impossible to concentrate on. __________________ "My name is Mallard, but you can call me Duck." ~Random Saying, compliments of Sirith and her best friend, concerning a book.

08-02-2003, 08:02 PM	#14
william Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: wherever i am needed Posts: 11	hey didnt the guy reintroduce the genre to begin with (if im wrong shoot me) i mean without this guy many of the writers today wouldnt be writing and even though other works pale in comparison they are better considering what you are looking for. lets admit the fact that Anne McCaffery Pern serries is much more scientific in its fantasy than tolkien but at the same time does not leave as much room for the fascinating debates like the ones on this forum it is all according to your taste and mine is multi-faceted so i need other books to supplement my tolkien diet. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither,Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

08-02-2003, 08:34 PM	#15
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Well I haven't read much fantasy aside from things by Tolkien. I do draw lots of parallels when I am reading other fantasy, but then, I draw parallels between LOTR and almost anything else anyway. As far as I am concerned, Tolkien's writing are deeper, wider, and all aroung bigger than any other fantasy, on a plain by itself. In fact, he is only matched by one other person, C.S. Lewis. If you want to read something that is as wide and full and beautiful as Middle-earth, read C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy which consists of "Out of the Silent Planet" "Perelandra" and "That Hideous Strength". __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-06-2003, 03:26 PM	#16
VardaoftheStars Guest Posts: n/a	There's no question in my mind that Tolkien is the archetype of fantasy. All the fantasy I've read is based on him and/or is highly influenced by him.

08-10-2003, 01:12 PM	#17
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	After reading Tolkien I tried to read other fantasy books and found them all too dull for words. So, either I am simply not enjoying the genre, and Tolkien is the exception, or I simply happened to pick the wrong books. I enjoy fairy tales very much though. And I like Harry Potter a lot. Does 'The Last Unicorn' by Peter Beagle belong to the 'fantasy' genre? It is very tolkienish, don't you think? __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.