Of Túrin Turambar, Tuor, and the Silmarils - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Joy · 12-03-2002, 10:01 AM

Over the last few days, I have been reading the Narn - the Tale of the Children of Húrin again.

As I was reading the story, some things began to pop out at me.

First - Of Tuor and Túrin, they were sons of two brothers, who served King Turgon of Gondolin. Húrin and Huor fought bravely in battle along side the King. The fates of the Fathers were each different. One was killed nobly in battle with a word of prophecy upon his lips. The other, a thrall of Morgoth, imprisioned in fetters on Thangorodrim. What made the doom of these brother's so different?

Now on to Túrin and Tuor. Tuor was a vassel of Ulmo, fostered by the Elf Annael. His path lead him to Gondolin into service of the King. But Túrin's path was much different. His path lead him to King Thingol of Menegroth, then as a servant/son, into the wilds. As his life continued, he became an outlaw of outlaws, a murderer of friends.

Now, on to my questions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

What made Túrin's and Tuor's path so different? Was it that Túrin had stepped into the Doom of the Noldor by being fostered by Thingol? Did the Silmarils have anything to do with his fate, though he was not directly involved with them? He was the kinsman of Beren, who took the Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth.

the phantom · 12-03-2002, 01:01 PM

One big reason for the differences is the curse that Morgoth placed upon Hurin's children. It was one of the driving forces in Turin's tragic life.

Aiwendil · 12-03-2002, 03:24 PM

It's interesting to examine the numerous parallels between Turin's and Tuor's life. They were of course cousins; they were each raised at least for some time by an Elf; they each came to live in and be important figures in the kingdom of another group of Elves; they were each advisers to an Elven king; they each loved that king's daughter; they each had a guide that led them to the kingdom as well as a political opponent within the kingdom, and in both cases the opponent also loved the king's daughter; the kingdoms both fell; they each then came to a new home that was not a great kingdom and thus escaped or seemed to escape Morgoth. I'm sure there are more.

Most importantly, though, the destiny of each was in some way determined by a Vala. Turin lived under the curse of Morgoth, which can be seen as having driven most of the events in his life; Tuor's fate fulfilled the prophecy and the designs of Ulmo. I think this is the main contrast between them: the malice of Morgoth versus the mercy of Ulmo.

Joy · 12-03-2002, 08:55 PM

Yes, but what made the malic of Morgoth be upon Húrin and his line? What made these two brothers favorable to these Valar, each for a different purpose?

Aiwendil · 12-03-2002, 10:59 PM

Need we look past the explicit cause? Huor was slain in battle, while Hurin was taken alive. Had Huor been captured, and defied Morgoth as Hurin did, surely Tuor's fate would have been different.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-04-2002, 06:32 AM

It does say that Hurin was taken alive by Morgoth's command. Maybe his intention was to capture Hurin and Huor, but the over-zealous Orcs killed Huor without thinking.

Lucky for Tuor then. And a few others...

Galorme · 12-04-2002, 10:56 AM

It could be that Morgoth knew that Hurin had children and thus thought he could be influenced by threatening them. Tuor was born in the wild beyond the knowledge of Morgoth.

Turin had a lonely, painful and destructive fate. This is in part due to his spirit, he was violent and in many ways foolish. Basically he was 100% pure man (yes I know he was called Elf Man that’s beyond the point). Tuor, on the other hand, had that slightly more mythical, more peaceful, more beautiful aspect to him, he was more Elven, probably due to being raised by them. This could account for the differences between the two cousins. Turin lived a short, violent life, whereas Tuor lives a long (indefinite?) life and he creates more than destroys (Earendil).

12-03-2002, 10:01 AM	#1
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Of Túrin Turambar, Tuor, and the Silmarils Over the last few days, I have been reading the Narn - the Tale of the Children of Húrin again. As I was reading the story, some things began to pop out at me. First - Of Tuor and Túrin, they were sons of two brothers, who served King Turgon of Gondolin. Húrin and Huor fought bravely in battle along side the King. The fates of the Fathers were each different. One was killed nobly in battle with a word of prophecy upon his lips. The other, a thrall of Morgoth, imprisioned in fetters on Thangorodrim. What made the doom of these brother's so different? Now on to Túrin and Tuor. Tuor was a vassel of Ulmo, fostered by the Elf Annael. His path lead him to Gondolin into service of the King. But Túrin's path was much different. His path lead him to King Thingol of Menegroth, then as a servant/son, into the wilds. As his life continued, he became an outlaw of outlaws, a murderer of friends. Now, on to my questions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] What made Túrin's and Tuor's path so different? Was it that Túrin had stepped into the Doom of the Noldor by being fostered by Thingol? Did the Silmarils have anything to do with his fate, though he was not directly involved with them? He was the kinsman of Beren, who took the Silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

12-03-2002, 01:01 PM	#2
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	One big reason for the differences is the curse that Morgoth placed upon Hurin's children. It was one of the driving forces in Turin's tragic life. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-03-2002, 08:55 PM	#4
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Yes, but what made the malic of Morgoth be upon Húrin and his line? What made these two brothers favorable to these Valar, each for a different purpose? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

12-04-2002, 06:32 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	It does say that Hurin was taken alive by Morgoth's command. Maybe his intention was to capture Hurin and Huor, but the over-zealous Orcs killed Huor without thinking. Lucky for Tuor then. And a few others... __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-04-2002, 10:56 AM	#7
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	It could be that Morgoth knew that Hurin had children and thus thought he could be influenced by threatening them. Tuor was born in the wild beyond the knowledge of Morgoth. Turin had a lonely, painful and destructive fate. This is in part due to his spirit, he was violent and in many ways foolish. Basically he was 100% pure man (yes I know he was called Elf Man that’s beyond the point). Tuor, on the other hand, had that slightly more mythical, more peaceful, more beautiful aspect to him, he was more Elven, probably due to being raised by them. This could account for the differences between the two cousins. Turin lived a short, violent life, whereas Tuor lives a long (indefinite?) life and he creates more than destroys (Earendil). __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-03-2002, 03:24 PM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	It's interesting to examine the numerous parallels between Turin's and Tuor's life. They were of course cousins; they were each raised at least for some time by an Elf; they each came to live in and be important figures in the kingdom of another group of Elves; they were each advisers to an Elven king; they each loved that king's daughter; they each had a guide that led them to the kingdom as well as a political opponent within the kingdom, and in both cases the opponent also loved the king's daughter; the kingdoms both fell; they each then came to a new home that was not a great kingdom and thus escaped or seemed to escape Morgoth. I'm sure there are more. Most importantly, though, the destiny of each was in some way determined by a Vala. Turin lived under the curse of Morgoth, which can be seen as having driven most of the events in his life; Tuor's fate fulfilled the prophecy and the designs of Ulmo. I think this is the main contrast between them: the malice of Morgoth versus the mercy of Ulmo.

12-03-2002, 10:59 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Need we look past the explicit cause? Huor was slain in battle, while Hurin was taken alive. Had Huor been captured, and defied Morgoth as Hurin did, surely Tuor's fate would have been different.