Fate of the two Blue Wizards?

[WarBringer]

I was reading the simarillion for at least the billionth time, and unless im missing something or its in a different book, i still cant find out what happened to 2 blue wizards who followed saruman...does anyone here find something i missed?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Nope, unless one of us has somehow managed to contact the Professor in the spirit world...

All there is is some of JRRT's speculation in Unfinished Tales, the essay on the Istari.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

No one knows for sure what happened to the Blue Wizards, only that they went and did not return. I'll relate a few theories that I've heard...

- Saruman, who went with them, killed them to further his own power and returned himself. However I don't think this probable, as his corruption had not begun yet by that stage as far as we know.

- They were simply killed, by hostile Easterlings or brigands or something, from whom Saruman only escaped. This sounds ok.

- They became corrupt and set up cults in the East, either with the intention of bringing down the West or of simply becoming powerful themselves.

- Saruman left them there to do their job, but they were later killed.

- They did their job but it didn't have much effect. Or perhaps it did. Maybe they were a calming influence on the Easterlings, the only one there to counter Sauron's alliance with them. One would have thought though that after Sauron's downfall they would have returned to the West with the Last Ship.

There are probably more. The fact is that we don't know, and can only really guess.

[Legolas]

Tolkien was unsure of what happened to them.

He offers thoughts in two different places...

The first is later, from Unfinished Tales, and the second from History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth

I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Ah, so that's where the cult theory and 'calming influence' missionary one came from... Well there's some good backing for the missionary one at any rate. It sounds very plausible in fact.

[the witch king]

i support the cults in the east my self if they didnt fall in to evil ways they would have returnd to the west right? and there wasnt any thing that i know that was powerful enuf to take on 2 wizards in the east

[WarBringer]

One possibility:If wizards take the forms of men, is it possibl that they formed small kingdoms, and possibly became ringwraiths?Its possible...

[Melkor89]

the 2 blue wizards are the remaining Istari. The others being Gandalf, Saruman & Radagast

[InklingElf]

Who are the two left? Do they have any significance to any of the stories compiled in the Silmarillion?

[WarBringer]

Who are the two left? Do they have any significance to any of the stories compiled in the Silmarillion?

What was meant by that InklingElf?

[InklingElf]

my apologies... What are their names? And do they partake in any stories of the SIlmarillion?
-Hope that clears it up

[WarBringer]

well, i recently lent the silmarillion and the later silmarillion parts one and two to a friend, and as such, i cannot look up their names at the moment. Tolkien mentions that two wizards folled Sarumon to the far west, to the coast,and did not return. I was hoping if anyone could find their true fate...

[Legolas]

Tolkien himself didn't tell us their true fate. Use your imagination. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Their 'names' are given two different places - Alatar and Pallando, and Morinehtar and Romestamo.

Alatar and Pallando is the account most people go with since they are the names Tolkien decided on when writing about the council Manwe held to choose the 5 Istari (and additionally because it was published first in Unfinished Tales, years before The History of Middle-earth series). Christopher Tolkien makes a note about Pallando's name that says that it was probably just a description rather than a name he was called by the other Maia.

You can find out all that was given to us about Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando at
http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_otherwizards.asp

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Maverick]

I have a theory on what could have happend to 1 of the 2 blue wizards.

Tolkien says that they could have been the starters of some cults that outlasted the fall of sauron. But I wondered if theu joined sauron like saruman did. I thought that 1 of them could be the Mouth of Sauron. Is there anything that could be used to try and prove this theory?

[Son of Númenor]

I thought that 1 of them could be the Mouth of Sauron. Is there anything that could be used to try and prove this theory?

Unfortunately no, but there is enough available to disprove the theory.

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge (The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens", 871).

Although one (or both) of the wizards may well have served Sauron in some regard after the disappearance of the Blue Wizards into the East, it is pretty obvious based on the passage above that neither was the Mouth of Sauron.

[Bombadil]

Now, Tolkien was very religious so this most likely is not true, but I was thinking that perhaps these cults that were formed that outlasted Sauron could maybe be religions of our world today. The only reason I think that is the whole "outlasted the fall of Sauron" thing.

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

[Aiwendil]

Bombadil wrote:

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

So perhaps one was Confucius and the other Siddhartha? Now there's an interesting idea!

[Son of Númenor]

Most major eastern religions have traceable backgrounds that Tolkien, as a learned man, was probably aware of. Here are a few that I can think of:

-Buddhism: Started by Siddhartha Gautama, circa 600 B.C.E.
-Islam: Started by Mohammed, late sixth century C.E.
-Confucianism: Started, obviously, by Confucius, 500's B.C.E.
-Taoism: Credit for the start given to Lao-zhi, circa 580 B.C.E.
-Shinto: Exact origins unknown, but believed to have begun circa 500 B.C.E.
-Hinduism: Origins in the Aryan invasion of what is now India, circa 1500 B.C.E.

Since the Third and Fourth Ages, according to Tolkien, were far longer ago than the origins of any of these major eastern religions, and since there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that Tolkien would ever want to include fake origins of an entire real religion in his mythology, it can safely be assumed that your theory is groundless.